Dark Wings, Dark words. Clues to be found?

[Macgregor of the North]

I have been working on, leaving, and then returning to notes I make on Old Nan for a while now and on my latest research on her I decided to look at a certain term used in the books. 

"Dark wings, Dark words".

This term is scattered here and there throughout the books and I decided to analyse it thoroughly to see a few things, like who says it, and if there is a specific bunch of people who use the term, and where it comes from, to see if the saying originated from a certain area as some sayings do. 

My goal here is, with Old Nan in mind, to try and narrow down where she comes from, and as we read the quotes it will become clear why I think the saying might help with the matter. 

There is not as much instances as you would think so bear with me, this will not be a massive long winded essay. 

If you want to skim down I have bolded the quote I feel is most important to what I want to show.

First up.

AGOT EDDARD V:

"Dark wings, dark words," Ned murmured. It was a proverb Old Nan had taught him as a boy."

First time it appears in the books, it's a saying Old Nan taught Ned when he was a boy, likely before he left for the Eyrie at 8 years old. 

AGOT BRAN V:

"Bran felt a sudden dread. Dark wings, dark words, Old Nan always said, and of late the messenger ravens had been proving the truth of the proverb."

Again, Old Nan has been teaching a favoured saying of hers to another Stark boy, Bran this time many years later.

AGOT EDDDARD XII:

""Dark wings, dark words," Ned said grimly. "What of it?" 

Nothing really of note, except Ned using it again which only shows the saying has stuck with him. 

ACOK CATELYN VII:

""Is it news of King's Landing?" asked Brienne.
"Would that it was. The bird came from Castle Cerwyn, from Ser Rodrik, my castellan." Dark wings, dark words."

Cat this time, could be she learned this as a girl growing up in Riverrun, or could be a saying she picked up in the North from Old Nan and Ned. 

ASOS CATELYN I:

" A raven came to the castle in late afternoon, flapping down on great black wings to the rookery. Dark wings, dark words, she thought, remembering the last bird that had come and the horror it had brought."

Cat again, nothing new, same as before. This just shows us that wherever she learned it, the saying has stuck with her. 

ASOS BRAN II:

"The Old Bear took the Watch into the haunted woods, and all that come back was his ravens, with hardly a message between them. Dark wings, dark words, me mother used to say, but when the birds fly silent, seems to me that's even darker." 

This one is ace I think. This is Bran talking to a Liddle from the Northern mountain Clans. He shows us that his mother taught him this saying. Interesting.

AFFC - THE PROPHET:

""A maester's bird, from Pyke," Gormond confirmed.
Dark wings, dark words. "The ravens fly o'er salt and stone. If there are tidings that concern me, speak them now." 
"Such tidings as we bear are for your ears alone, Damphair," the Sparr said. "These are not matters I would speak of here before these others."

Now, we have thoughts from the Damphair of the Ironborn. He actually uses the phrase as well as the Northern folks we have heard already.

AFFC - THE PROPHET:

"Aeron shoved a bare black foot into a stirrup and swung himself onto the saddle. He was not fond of horses—they were creatures from the green lands and helped to make men weak—but necessity required that he ride. Dark wings, dark words. A storm was brewing, he could hear it in the waves, and storms brought naught but evil."

Again as before, Aeron Damphair. Could be an Ironborn as well as Northern Saying.

ADWD - THE WAYWARD BRIDE:

"This is poison that I hold, she thought. I ought to burn it. Instead she cracked the seal. A scrap of leather fluttered down into her lap. When she read the dry brown words, her black mood grew blacker still. Dark wings, dark words. The ravens never brought glad tidings. The last message sent to Deepwood had been from Stannis Baratheon, demanding homage. This was worse. "The northmen have taken Moat Cailin."

Here we have Asha, an Ironborn woman thinking the same words in her head. Is there a pattern here? Are we seeing Northern folks and Ironborn folks only thinking or saying this phrase?.

ADWD JON X:

"Dark wings, dark words?" asked Alys Karstark. 
"No, my lady. This news was long awaited." 

Back to a Northerner, a Karstark. Pattern emerging? Who knows, let's keep going.

ADWD THEON I:

"The bird's black plumage shone like coal oil in the torchlight. Wet, Theon realized. And in his lordship's hand, a parchment. That will be wet as well. Dark wings, dark words. "Rather than use our swords upon each other, you might try them on Lord Stannis." 

Back again to the Ironborn. It's becoming obvious to me at least this is an old saying of Northern and Ironborn peoples. 

ADWD JON XIII:

"As you say, m'lord, only ... Clydas don't look his proper self … he's more white than pink, if you get my meaning … and he's shaking."
"Dark wings, dark words," muttered Tormund. "Isn't that what you kneelers say?" 

This one is a very good example I think. It shows that Tormund, who is a Wildling to the bone, doesn't know, and doesn't use this saying beyond the wall. Which makes me think it is not a Wildling saying, and never has been.
So, in regards to Old Nan, could this point In the other direction from the theories that she was a Wildling girl? Who knows? Let's go on.

ADWD JON XIII:

"Not often," Jon Snow admitted. Dark wings, dark words. Perhaps there was more truth to those wise old sayings than he'd known. "It was sent by Ramsay Snow. I'll read you what he wrote." 

Jon, from same chapter thinking on the old proverb.

ADWD EPILOGUE:

"He might have said more, but the dark-haired novice with the round cheeks returned to say, "My lord, my lady, I am sorry to intrude, but there is a boy below. Grand Maester Pycelle begs the favor of the Lord Regent's presence at once."

Dark wings, dark words, Ser Kevan thought. 
Could Storm's End have fallen? Or might this be word from Bolton in the north?."

Now here we go with the last time we read this expression in the books and funnily it's actually Kevan Lannister of neither the North or the Iron Islands that thinks it. 

So what are we to think of Kevan using the term? I'm inclined to think that it's now maybe just an older term, bandied around the circle of men/women during conversations where Raven messages are concerned and Kevan has picked it up during conversations over the years possibly.

But let's think of the Origin of the term.
I like to rule things OUT first. Basically, if we don't need it let's cut it loose. I think Tormund is a Wildling that would know every saying they would use and when he says it's a Kneelers term, I'm gonna go ahead and take it that the Wildlings are not using that term beyond the Wall.
Therefore, if this is not a Wildling term/saying/expression, then doesn't this take a step toward possibly squashing speculation Old Nan was a Wildling girl? Or spent a lot of time with the Wildlings etc.? Because if she was teaching this saying to young Starks of two generations like Ned and Bran, and probably other Stark boys also in the past, then she had to have learned this when she was younger. But if this is not a saying known beyond the wall then to me this helps to make me think Old Nan is not from beyond the wall. But from where the Kneelers are. South of the Wall.

Next. We can look at Cat. While I can't rule out that she may have heard her elders use the term around Riverrun in her youth I actually believe it more likely she picked up this term in the North after spending so much time with Ned and Old Nan. 

Next up, the Ironborn. This is undoubtedly a saying that has been used among the people of the Iron Islands concerning messages from Ravens. We aren't to know if it originated there but it is 100% a term used by its inhabitants. 
Can this point to Old Nan possibly growing up amongst the Ironborn and learning it there? Myself personally I would be straight up shocked if that were the case. I believe if Old Nan were Ironborn we would have sniffed a clue in the text by now.

Next up Kevan Lannister. He thinks the saying once so has obviously heard it. Myself personally, I don't think it is a saying used as much below the neck in the mainland as it is in the mainlands above the neck. 

Then we have the Northeners who use the saying. Ned Stark, Alys Karstark, Jon Snow, Bran Stark, the Liddle. Quite a few instances here. And I personally think we can chalk up Catelyns reference to being of a Northern influence from being around Old Nan and Ned at WF.

So if we can rule out Old Nan learning the saying beyond the wall among the Wildlings, that may help narrow down the areas that she may hail from. 

I have thought many times Nan was an Umber female that was possibly carried off by Wildlings and rescued perhaps(her ill will toward Wildlings is clear), or maybe that she was just an Umber female that came down from Last hearth when Willam sent out Ravens and riders for the aid of a Wet nurse. 

Due to this research on the saying I am more certain now in my own thoughts that Nan is a Northern woman but not from beyond the wall, and the rumours of Tanselle too tall etc etc are just connections GRRM left to lead us in different directions with our theorising. 

I think the Liddle's comments that his Mother taught him the saying is a good clue. It shows it is an old saying among the Mountain clans of the North. I wonder if perhaps this is a nod to Nan being of the mountain clans as she also surely learned the proverb in her youth?.

Nan also seems to have good Knowledge of The Flints of the Mountain Clans, from the same Northern mountain range north of the Wolfswood where Bran talks with the Liddle he happens upon. 
Old Nan says it's his Great grandmother Flints blood in him that makes him a climber. I wonder if it's possible she knows more about the Flints skill with climbing because she was raised among the Clans in the Northern mountains?. Who knows, i suppose it's possible she only knows of the climbing because Arya Flint could have told her after she married Rodrik Stark and came to WF also.

This piece is not to say Old Nan is from the Mountain clans, but I have hoped to narrow it down to where she is from and I think I have possibly helped to rule out (in my opinion) that she hails from below the Neck, or beyond the Wall. 

I think personally it's a case of which Northern house. And GRRM will inform us before the end where she came from and it would not surprise me if she was from the Mountain clans in the North mountains beyond the Wolfswood.

What do you guys think? Any clues here to be found in regards to the saying "Dark wings, Dark words".

 

 

 

 

 

[Seams]

So this is the longer version of the ideas you shared on the Queenscrown thread awhile back. Nice research!

Thinking about the Tormund Gianstbane quote you highlighted - I know there are theories that Tormund is Maege Mormont's lover and the father of her children. Would he have picked up this phrase from her? Wildlings would consider the Mormonts to be kneelers, right? Unless the wildlings carried off women from south of the Wall, the only other conversation Tormund would have had with someone from below the wall would be Mance, right? Maybe it doesn't matter where he picked it up. It does seem significant that he pinpoints this as a kneeler saying, though.

It's also interesting to think of the "Dark wings, dark words" phrase in the larger context:

• Does it refer only to ravens? Dragons and bats and swans and other types of birds also have wings.
• Bloodraven and Old Nan have told Bran that ravens used to speak their messages, but now they carry written messages (presumably attached to their ankles). Why do these two people know this story, and why do they share it with Bran? I wonder if Wex Pyke and Davos learning their letters is the mirror image of this loss of message-speaking ability by the ravens?
• The craven / raven wordplay, as well as Sam's work with ravens at Castle Black, make me wonder if this has something to do with him, too. I have the feeling he will learn to read runes while he is at the Citadel, and will decipher some old prophecy that no one else has understood.
• Does "dark words" translate into "bad news" only? Or would a magic spell be characterized as "dark words" as well?
• In the author's use of wordplay, "words" is related to swords and wards (foster children / hostages). Is there a double meaning here?
• Other wordplay: is there a "Dawn" anagram hidden within?

You have such a good eye for details, Macgregor. Lots of things to ponder about this.

[Macgregor of the North]

15 minutes ago, Seams said:

So this is the longer version of the ideas you shared on the Queenscrown thread awhile back. Nice research!

Thinking about the Tormund Gianstbane quote you highlighted - I know there are theories that Tormund is Maege Mormont's lover and the father of her children. Would he have picked up this phrase from her? Wildlings would consider the Mormonts to be kneelers, right? Unless the wildlings carried off women from south of the Wall, the only other conversation Tormund would have had with someone from below the wall would be Mance, right? Maybe it doesn't matter where he picked it up. It does seem significant that he pinpoints this as a kneeler saying, though.

It's also interesting to think of the "Dark wings, dark words" phrase in the larger context:

• Does it refer only to ravens? Dragons and bats and swans and other types of birds also have wings.
• Bloodraven and Old Nan have told Bran that ravens used to speak their messages, but now they carry written messages (presumably attached to their ankles). Why do these two people know this story, and why do they share it with Bran? I wonder if Wex Pyke and Davos learning their letters is the mirror image of this loss of message-speaking ability by the ravens?
• The craven / raven wordplay, as well as Sam's work with ravens at Castle Black, make me wonder if this has something to do with him, too. I have the feeling he will learn to read runes while he is at the Citadel, and will decipher some old prophecy that no one else has understood.
• Does "dark words" translate into "bad news" only? Or would a magic spell be characterized as "dark words" as well?
• In the author's use of wordplay, "words" is related to swords and wards (foster children / hostages). Is there a double meaning here?
• Other wordplay: is there a "Dawn" anagram hidden within?

You have such a good eye for details, Macgregor. Lots of things to ponder about this.

Thanks for the compliment Seams I am a sucker for thoroughly analysing details. 

Yup this is the full thread, nobody would talk to me when I posted it though haha. 

I can only manage a quick reply justnow as I'm busy until later but thanks for posting, I will look over your post with more time on my hands soon. 

On Tormund quickly though, I think I got the idea he had spent enough time round Jon and other people from south of the wall that he just picked up a saying of theirs and applied it in a half humorous kind of way, since he is quite tight with Jon. 

Kind of like say if I was talking to a friend from another part of Scotland and the opportunity presented itself id say a saying they say, and go isn't that what you 'so and so's' say. Insert a jokingly meant insult in the place of 'so and so's.

[BricksAndSparrows]

Why is it not sufficient to simply say "Dark Wings, Dark Words," is a saying, just like "Words are wind," or "Seven hells?"

[Macgregor of the North]

6 hours ago, Seams said:

So this is the longer version of the ideas you shared on the Queenscrown thread awhile back. Nice research!

Thinking about the Tormund Gianstbane quote you highlighted - I know there are theories that Tormund is Maege Mormont's lover and the father of her children. Would he have picked up this phrase from her? Wildlings would consider the Mormonts to be kneelers, right? Unless the wildlings carried off women from south of the Wall, the only other conversation Tormund would have had with someone from below the wall would be Mance, right? Maybe it doesn't matter where he picked it up. It does seem significant that he pinpoints this as a kneeler saying, though.

It's also interesting to think of the "Dark wings, dark words" phrase in the larger context:

• Does it refer only to ravens? Dragons and bats and swans and other types of birds also have wings.
• Bloodraven and Old Nan have told Bran that ravens used to speak their messages, but now they carry written messages (presumably attached to their ankles). Why do these two people know this story, and why do they share it with Bran? I wonder if Wex Pyke and Davos learning their letters is the mirror image of this loss of message-speaking ability by the ravens?
• The craven / raven wordplay, as well as Sam's work with ravens at Castle Black, make me wonder if this has something to do with him, too. I have the feeling he will learn to read runes while he is at the Citadel, and will decipher some old prophecy that no one else has understood.
• Does "dark words" translate into "bad news" only? Or would a magic spell be characterized as "dark words" as well?
• In the author's use of wordplay, "words" is related to swords and wards (foster children / hostages). Is there a double meaning here?
• Other wordplay: is there a "Dawn" anagram hidden within?

You have such a good eye for details, Macgregor. Lots of things to ponder about this.

Hey again Seams. 

Ye back to Tormund, while the Mormont theories are interesting I just think it's that Tormund has been around Jon and been friendly long enough with Jon(It's all the way in ADWD Jon XIII the comments made) that he's picked up on it and used it that time in a funny way, but it's obvious in my eyes that the saying is not used beyond the wall ever so in regards to Nan I think it certainly is a plus point for her not being a Wildling girl. 

On the other stuff:

I do think it's just a Raven associated comment. Them, and their wings, are dark while swans aren't and a lot of dragons aren't either, although some are. Plus the words thing maybe means it's a very very old Northern saying, originating from when the Ravens actually spoke the words, like you mention further down.

I must admit Seams I love your wordplay stuff but I get the feeling I am hopeless at it , but do keep posting them up when we talk. I like the Raven/Craven/Sam point you make, that's cool, and I agree he will learn and decipher something old and important at Oldtown.

 

 

 

[The Puffin Has Three Heads]

Oh, I must disagree with the idea that the saying originated in the north.  The ravens are inextricably linked to the old gods.  It is the southern worshippers of the Faith of the Seven who held all that northern mumbo-jumbo as demon worship, and southerners were deeply suspicious of everything northern.  'Dark wings, dark words' surely originated with them.

I love the theory that Old Nan was the unnamed Frey bride from Dunk & Egg 3, The Mystery Knight, and as such, her ideas about ravens, white walkers, etcetera all have a distinctly southern spin - and things northern and far northern aren't nearly what the southerners have made them out to be.

Here's a tiny part of my crackpot.  (Just preface everything below with the words 'I believe that...')

All the detailed evidence in the book points to a massive upheaval in the north 250-200 years ago, and I believe that King Jaehaerys I got the Faith Militant off his own back by teaming up with them to conquer the north, to put the northern demonic religious practices to rout.  The original northern Night's Watch was replaced with the Black Crows (former Faith Militant), so hated by the Wildlings.  The northerners were forced to kneel to their new overlords, and nothing has been the same since. 

This Conquest of the North is what is depicted on those tapestries Littlefinger is so interested in.  I believe they were commissioned during the reign of Jaehaerys I, and hung in the throne room until King Baelor the Blessed had them taken down and replaced with dragon skulls.  When Robert took the throne, the dragon skulls were taken down, and 'Hey, look what we found!  There are some tapestries down here in the basement that are a perfect fit for the throne room!'  A casual glance showed they depicted war and hunting.  'Hey, Robert likes war and hunting! These are perfect!' 

In AGOT, when Ned is on the iron throne hearing the people of the riverlands complain about Gregor's forces rampaging and slaughtering, Ned repeatedly glances up at those tapestries and damns Robert.  Ned's not angry about Robert being absent - you know Robert would not have stood up to Tywin - but he's angry for Robert's obliviousness.  The tapestries show what happened in the north, and it's exactly what the riverlanders are describing.

There's nothing in the history books about it because King Baelor ordered it all to be wiped from history.  He had Septon Barth's books burned (Barth was Jaehaerys's hand, and chronicled it all).  However, Baelor had no authority to erase history in Essos, and even the Green Grace marked Jaehaerys down as a conqueror, in the same class as Aegon the Conqueror and Daeron the Young Dragon.

Before Baelor ordered that history erased, his own older brother Daeron the Young Dragon was inspired by Jaehaerys's conquest of the north to do his own conquest of the south.  Daeron's vainglorious book about his Conquest of Dorne was inspired by the writings about Jaehaerys's northern exploits - both Daeron and Jaehaerys I came to the throne at the age of 14, so Daeron would have felt he had a lot to live up to.  Daeron's Conquest has, in its turn, been admired by generations of young boys including Jon Snow, and Edric Storm.

Attempts to erase history didn't get everything, however:

 

Quote

 

"The Rogue Prince" (US hardback pages 805-806)

On the third day of the third moon of 129 AC, Princess Helaena brought her three children to visit with the king in his chambers.  The twins Jaehaerys and Jaehaera were six years old, their brother Maelor only two.  His Grace gave the babe a pearl ring off his finger to play with, and told the twins the story of how their great-great-grandsire and namesake Jaehaerys the Old King had flown his dragon north to the Wall to defeat a vast host of wildlings, giants, and wargs.  The children listened attentively.  Afterward the king sent them away, pleading weariness.  Then Viserys of House Targaryen, the First of His Name, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm, closed his eyes and went to sleep.

 

 

Wildlings, giants, and the most important wargs were the Starks, who still had their direwolves at this time.

The story has been prettified since then, so the above version is very different from what Jon told Ygritte:

Quote

ASOS Jon V, Chapter 41

"A queen stayed there for a night." Old Nan had told him the story, but Maester Luwin had confirmed most of it.  "Alysanne, the wife of King Jaehaerys the Conciliator.  He's called the Old King because he reigned so long, but he was young when he first came to the Iron Throne.  In those days, it was his wont to travel all over the realm.  When he came to Winterfell, he brought his queen, six dragons, and half his court.  The king had matters to discuss with his Warden of the North, and Alysanne grew bored, so she mounted her dragon Silverwing and flew north to see the Wall.  This village was one of the places where she stopped.  Afterward the smallfolk painted the top of their holdfast to look like the golden crown she'd worn when she spent the night among them."

The inhabitants of Queenscrown didn't celebrate her visit.  The Targaryens painted the holdfast as a reminder that 'Big Brother is Watching You,' and that dragonfire can reach even this little backwater village - so behave!  It's not surprising that the villagers abandoned the place.

Before northerners were forced to kneel, the Wall was a protective wall such as the curtain wall around a city, and when the white cold rose in the far north, the wildlings used to cross to safety south of the Wall.  When the Faith Militant took over the Wall, they denied that there were any icy northern demons - so northerners shouldn't go sacrificing their babies to them at the Nightfort.  They sealed up all but three tunnels, and imposed the phony claim that the Wall is there to protect against wildlings - only wildlings.  It's now like Saltpans, with the common folk denied a safe retreat behind the protective Wall when trouble comes calling. 

The Faith Militant are the real reason why there are no heart trees at the forts along the Wall.  It's the reason southerners used to have such a high opinion of the valiant knights of the Nights Watch - they were doing the Gods' own work dealing with those heathen northerners.

Now that the heathen northerners seem subdued, the Nights Watch is simply a dumping ground for the refuse of the Seven Kingdoms - except to those who remember. 

The north remembers.  At least, the adults do, but they don't tell the truth to their children until they come of age, and the Stark kids were all underage when all hell broke loose.

House Royce's words are 'We remember' and they do.

Most fans think they've all forgotten about the zombie-wights and the white walkers, but it's this Conquest and subjugation of the north that they're remembering.  In the AGOT prologue, Ser Waymar Royce, a southron knight, relentlessly needles Gared, trying to get him to admit that he still believes in icy demons and the risen dead, but Gared won't take the bait.  (Read between the lines.  There's text and subtext right from the first paragraph.)

The official histories say the Night's Watch has been an institution that's protected the Seven Kingdoms from the wildlings for 8,000 years, and sadly most fans seem to swallow that, even though it makes no sense, even though there are massive hints that all is not as it seems and that history has been re-written.

Lord Rickard Stark, Ned's father, is said to have 'southern ambitions.'  I think that simply means he decided to use their lie against them.  The southerners conquered the north to put an end to their demon worship, and now they're pretending that it never happened and that there are no 'demons.'  Well, fine.  If that's the way the southerners want to play it, then they have no excuse to claim that the northerners are still worshipping non-existent demons.  Lord Rickard's idea was to behave as if 'we northerners are just as *civilized* as they are.  Then they have no excuse to come at us again.'  Outwardly, Ned and Benjen and the others pretend there are no 'Others.' but privately they know they're real, and they act quietly to deal with the situation.

Even GRRM himself has dropped hints about the official history being suspect as little as 200 years ago.

Quote

The viewpoint of looking back, maesters, contemporary maesters trying to reconstruct history from hundreds and thousands of years, .of events that took place hundreds and thousands of years earlier where there may be little or no written records.  There may be contradictory records, oral traditions and all that.  Which is something I don't think a lot of fantasy does, I mean fantasy frequently has these long-lived dynasties or histories and it's just presented to you as fact.  This is what happened 23,000 years ago, and here it is.   And the truth is we don't know what happened 23,000 years ago.  We hardly know what happened, you know, 200 years ago.

-GRRM  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCaZWMppfp0

It's also the reason why Ned finally decides to trust Littlefinger, even though he personally loathes him.  Littlefinger keeps dropping hints to Ned that he knows all about the true history, and is keeping it all a secret.  LF seems to be keeping faith with what's really important.

When Ned made his confession just before he was executed, take note that he was, in effect, saying that the representatives of the Faith of the Seven and King Baelor were the biggest liars he knew of.
 

Quote

AGOT Arya V Ch 65

"Let the High Septon and Baelor the Blessed and the Seven bear witness to the truth of what I say:  Joffrey Baratheon is the one true heir to the Iron Throne, and by the grace of all the gods, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm."

There's so much more to this.  The evidence really is overwhelming, once you accept the fact that the official version of history is a lie. 

Sorry for sidetracking your thread, but topics like this really hit a nerve with me! 

 

[Macgregor of the North]

5 hours ago, The Puffin Has Three Heads said:

Sorry for sidetracking your thread, but topics like this really hit a nerve with me! 

 

No probs, it happens you can start a thread on your own topic and I'll discuss there if you like. 

Back to topic. This thread is to show points against Nan being a Wildling. Stick to that please if you fancy a discussion here.

[Macgregor of the North]

5 hours ago, The Puffin Has Three Heads said:

Oh, I must disagree with the idea that the saying originated in the north.  The ravens are inextricably linked to the old gods.  It is the southern worshippers of the Faith of the Seven who held all that northern mumbo-jumbo as demon worship, and southerners were deeply suspicious of everything northern.  'Dark wings, dark words' surely originated with them.

I love the theory that Old Nan was the unnamed Frey bride from Dunk & Egg 3, The Mystery Knight, and as such, her ideas about ravens, white walkers, etcetera all have a distinctly southern spin - and things northern and far northern aren't nearly what the southerners have made them out to be.

 

This part is cool for discussion here since it's about the saying, its origin, Old Nan, and her origin. The rest is for your own thread. 

I have thought of the idea of Nan being a Frey lots of times. It's certainly not out the question of course. I may explore it further again as I'm always on the lookout to pin down her origin.

I don't think you can be so sure the saying dark wings dark words originated in the south just because they thought the northerners were demon worshippers, that's not enough. We never hear it in the south apart from one instance from Kevan, it's an ancient Northern and Ironborn saying most likely going by what we have in the books.

[Macgregor of the North]

The Puffin, you have sparked my interest so why don't we talk Old Nan more if you like. 

Lord Walder Frey. Born 208AC.

Possible older sister of Walder- Old Nan. I had as a guess from way back when I did Nan research that her birth date was around 194AC. 

So let's run with it that she's Walders older sister who gets married to Lord Butterwell at Whitewalls tourney in 211AC as I'm always up for an Old Nan chat. 

Lord Butterwells Frey wife is born in 195/196AC so straight off the bat her birth date is bang smack in range. 

Dunk and Egg are headed north to see the Wall(it's in their plans at some stage but this changes to go to WF and help against Dagons reavers).
So Dunk is at Whitewalls, a possible Old Nan is at Whitewalls. Already before their alleged kissing at WF(if that's believed to be true).

Let's assume that through some chain of events, on the aftermath of the Whitewalls saga and destruction, Nan heads north with D&E and she is with child, which is convenient for the Starks as they are looking for a wet nurse for baby Brandon after the death of Lyanne Glover. 

Discuss. Why not eh? An Old Nan discussion is never a bad thing.

@Seams your always keen for an Old Nan Frey chat isn't that so 

[Seams]

10 hours ago, The Puffin Has Three Heads said:

...

Here's a tiny part of my crackpot.  (Just preface everything below with the words 'I believe that...')

All the detailed evidence in the book points to a massive upheaval in the north 250-200 years ago, and I believe that King Jaehaerys I got the Faith Militant off his own back by teaming up with them to conquer the north, to put the northern demonic religious practices to rout.  The original northern Night's Watch was replaced with the Black Crows (former Faith Militant), so hated by the Wildlings.  The northerners were forced to kneel to their new overlords, and nothing has been the same since. 

This Conquest of the North is what is depicted on those tapestries Littlefinger is so interested in. 

...

There's so much more to this.  The evidence really is overwhelming, once you accept the fact that the official version of history is a lie. 

Sorry for sidetracking your thread, but topics like this really hit a nerve with me! 

This is cool! I hope you will wholesale copy and paste this and start a new thread. My Agatha Christie-meter was activated right away when Littlefinger took an interest in those tapestries, and I've been wondering what secrets they might hold. Great, original insights. I bet people would love to make this a big discussion.

3 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

The Puffin, you have sparked my interest so why don't we talk Old Nan more if you like. 

Lord Walder Frey. Born 208AC.

Possible older sister of Walder- Old Nan. I had as a guess from way back when I did Nan research that her birth date was around 194AC. 

So let's run with it that she's Walders older sister who gets married to Lord Butterwell at Whitewalls tourney in 211AC as I'm always up for an Old Nan chat. 

Lord Butterwells Frey wife is born in 195/196AC so straight off the bat her birth date is bang smack in range. 

Dunk and Egg are headed north to see the Wall(it's in their plans at some stage but this changes to go to WF and help against Dagons reavers).
So Dunk is at Whitewalls, a possible Old Nan is at Whitewalls. Already before their alleged kissing at WF(if that's believed to be true).

Let's assume that through some chain of events, on the aftermath of the Whitewalls saga and destruction, Nan heads north with D&E and she is with child, which is convenient for the Starks as they are looking for a wet nurse for baby Brandon after the death of Lyanne Glover. 

Discuss. Why not eh? An Old Nan discussion is never a bad thing.

@Seams your always keen for an Old Nan Frey chat isn't that so 

This sounds right to me. The Frey connection has to be there, somewhere, I'm thinking. I would love it if GRRM would drop another Dunk & Egg story on us, so we could pin down some of these ideas.

I wonder whether there was an initial, famous message that arrived by raven, leading to the first utterance of the "Dark wings, dark words" saying? Was Old Nan present when that raven arrived?

[Macgregor of the North]

2 hours ago, Seams said:

 

This sounds right to me. The Frey connection has to be there, somewhere, I'm thinking. I would love it if GRRM would drop another Dunk & Egg story on us, so we could pin down some of these ideas.

I wonder whether there was an initial, famous message that arrived by raven, leading to the first utterance of the "Dark wings, dark words" saying? Was Old Nan present when that raven arrived?

Sometimes I look forward to the WF Novella just as much as winds. WF/Stark history is something I'm very very interested in and it should answer quite a few questions I believe. 

Yes the first time the proverb was used must have been some huge dark news indeed. What if the Raven uttered the words itself since they could speak the words back in the days. Something like "I bring dark words with dark wings" or something and it stuck. 

 

[One Eyed Cat]

I agree that Old Nan is most likely not a wildling and I have as well thought she might've been born Frey.

[Macgregor of the North]

7 hours ago, One Eyed Cat said:

I agree that Old Nan is most likely not a wildling and I have as well thought she might've been born Frey.

I'm pretty much as sure in my own mind as I can get that Old Nan wasn't born a Wildling girl. 

As to the Frey thing, not so sure. But the possibility cannot just be swept away easily, as this thread has shown, so when you look at the angles, it's actually quite possible. I suppose it's just up to GRRM now to confirm whether or not he's gave everyone's favourite ancient woman a strange interesting background, or just a regular old nobody background.