First of all, sorry for the wait: the marvelous Reviewbrain and I were planning to write a review together to spice things up a bit and try to do justice to the last of the episodes of this tumultuous season, but real life got in the way… So, here is the review, as complete as I could: feel free to comment and don’t forget to grade it! 🙂 Many thanks for our faithful and awesome readers and/or commenters for sticking with us for those exciting months; we hope to read you very soon! (Also, for those who are interested, I’m planning to do a recap of the principal themes running trough the five seasons of the show, but be patient, it takes A LOT of time… 😉 )
Synopsis
After spending one week working alone on his list of suspects for RJ, consultant Patrick Jane (Simon Baker) is joined by his partner agent Lisbon (Robin Tunney). While he refuses to tell her the names he came up with, both are soon facing another problem: a new victim has been added to the serial killer very own list, one that obligates Jane to take a painful trip down memory lane.
Concise Verdict
Unexpected, well-written, yet unsatisfactory and slightly frustrating, these are some of the many adjectives that may very well be applied to this episode. As a whole, it gives an eerie impression of being a bit slow and unnerving and doesn’t match the show’s usual atmosphere. Still, at the same time, it is extremely well connected to the storyline and the previous episodes and the more one digs in its writing, the more it becomes apparent that there are many subtleties hidden in its shadows… To put it simply, waiting for the next season after such a finale will be especially hard, no doubt about it! 9.3/10
Detailed AKA Humongous Review (spoilers galore)
VIS # 1: the opening
The very first moments of the episode are almost deceptively normal: Lisbon goes to get Jane in the attic to join the team. Still, there is a pretty big difference since this is apparently their first encounter after the one week of voluntary confinement then he asked of her in ‘Red and Itchy’: we get a timeline and, more importantly we viewers are as eager as Lisbon to learn what the clever consultant has come up with when he reveals he has managed to narrow his infamous list to a few names.
Interestingly, we are also reminded right away of the previous season ending: Jane is burning his board about RJ on the rooftop, just outside of his attic, like he did with his copy of the RJ file in ‘Red Rover, Red Rover’. Beside, while following Lisbon in the bullpen, he tells her that he’s tired because he hasn’t slept in a week: it reminds how lonely and unkempt Jane was in Vegas. Indeed, both ends of seasons are linked by the fact that Jane has crafted another clever trap to catch his nemesis. And his reluctance to share said plan with Lisbon alludes also to his six months silence. Yet, this time, he told her about his what he’s doing, he just doesn’t want to share the specifics… Those two have make progress in the trust/ reliance department and it shows when Lisbon comes to wake him up to inform him that RJ has stroke again: his sleepiness and disheveled appearance hints to his fragility, while Lisbon’s softness indicates that she fears how he will react to the news.
VIS # 2: Bret Partridge at the crime scene
Again, the crime scene alludes a bit to Jane’s escapade to Vegas as it takes place in a motel room: a woman has been killed in her bed, under the usual bloody smiley. Hard not to think that RJ’s message to Jane in ‘The Crimson Hat’ was sending him Lorelei, who ended up in bed with him… and whose corpse has been found naked under a sheet not so long ago. Again, RJ is trying to tell Jane something, the only difference is that this time Jane will take some time to decipher his terrible message…
One of the most interesting points is that, again, Partridge is the forensic tech in charge of the crime scene. His attitude is pretty similar than in his previous appearances: the man enjoys explaining his theories and his audience is a new tech working with him. It’s visible that Partridge fancies himself an expert on RJ as he discards almost immediately the new case as a genuine murder from the serial killer. He even affirms that RJ hasn’t killed in a while, since Lorelei’s death was a particular case (she worked with him, she was not a normal victim): the new guy doesn’t know it, but it also reminds us viewers that RJ had indeed stopped for a while, hence it hints that this case is particularly important and unexpected.
But Brett becomes far less secure when Jane enters the room. His wariness of Jane and his relative deference towards him are ambiguous: is he simply afraid of the man because of their latest confrontation in ‘Red Lacquer Polish’? Or is he playing the part of the inoffensive and rather incompetent tech who can’t be clever enough to be RJ? Either way, the regular viewers may remember that his name was on the list in ‘Black Cherry’ and Jane’s attitude towards him is even colder than before, which is an indication that Jane has really come to see him in a more sinister light than the infuriating ghoul he’s been dealing with since the pilot… It’s interesting that Jane tells Lisbon that he can feel that it’s a RJ crime scene: it foreshadows the psychic theme that will be running through the episode and gives to the moment an ominous vibe. The victim is still unidentified, she’s a “Jane Doe” whose baby has been taken. That makes her symbolically the second “Jane” woman who has fallen victim of RJ with her child, after Angela Jane, also killed in a bedroom….
Also, another reminder of a previous finale shows up when Jane notices a phone number written on the wall near the phone, which helps them identify the victim. In ‘Strawberry and Cream’, an address had been scribbled on the bathroom wall, leading Lisbon to a building where she’d been strapped to a bomb.
VIS # 3: a new insight in Jane’s past
After identifying the victim, Jane discovers that she was married to someone he knew years ago: it’s visible he’s unsettled by the news, still he accompanies Lisbon to what he defines as his hometown, the Stoney Ridge trailer park where he and his father had spent the winters when they weren’t travelling with their psychic show during his childhood. Here, he meets Sam and Pete, the friends he introduced to Lisbon in ‘Cackle-Bladder Blood’. Step by step, like in a Greek tragedy, Jane is realizing that the case is hitting very close to home, so to speak, and what began has a strange feeling becomes a nagging doubt, before morphing into fear.
An intriguing detail is that there is a yellow orchid-looking flower in a vase on the table while Jane and Lisbon are talking to Sam and Pete: it closes the arc involving Lorelei, since the first orchid appeared in ‘Devil’s Cherry’ when Jane was desperate after losing his precious lead to the serial killer. Here, his efforts have come to fruition and Jane is about to make a serious break thanks to her. Yet, at the same time, back then the flower was associated to the butterfly, a symbol of hope in the show: while hallucinating, Jane was starting to realize that he wanted something more than revenge. He wanted to start a new life, presumably with Lisbon… which leads us to expect another step too in regard to his relationship with his partner.
That also means we are given a few interesting details about Jane’s background. As it has been ironically foreshadowed in the carnie elements in the crime scene of Lorelei’s murder (‘There Will Be Blood’), ‘Red John is deliberately bringing (him) home” to face his childhood memories, like places he lived in (the town he considered like home) and people he was close to (his friends Sam and Pete, Lily…). The position of the Jane family in the carnie world is also clarified: in season 3, Jane told Lisbon that his father had a show with the carnies, but remained a bit vague about his status, while he insisted that Angela’s family had been carnie royalties… Here, he spontaneously admits that his family had been part of the carnie folks for a long time: to convince him to share information, he asks Pete “how long the Janes and the Turners have been travelling together?” Pete answers: “one hundred years now probably”. Jane has been willing to let Lisbon know this tidbit of personal information and he didn’t try to leave her out of the conversation with his old friends like he did back then when he distracted her with the elephant, which alone hints that they have entered news territories in the personal department.
VIS # 4: Jane and Lisbon in the car
Trust is once again under the spotlight in those two’s relationship. Even though this time around Jane has been letting his partner in from the start on his infamous list, he refuses to tell her who the very last names are. But his reasons for not telling her seem more genuine than they might have ever been. He isn’t trying to keep RJ to himself; he only fears that she would inadvertently sell them out. Because, in insight, there has been a precedent: she was responsible for the failure of Jane’s plan in ‘The Crimson Hat’. If she had put a better front when Luther tried to talk her in taking Jane back, Darcy wouldn’t have barged in the middle of their secret operation… Lisbon’s lack of dishonesty was the flaw in Jane’s plan and that may explain his willingness to play poker with her in ‘Red in Tooth and Claws’, as a mean to further evaluate her poker face and to help her get better at lying…
On the other hand, that lack of confidence in her ability to lie seems to really bother Lisbon, to the point that she asks him several times to come clean about his plans. Still, one may wonder to what extent she has proven to Jane that honesty she demands of him: given what Lisbon discovered in the previous episode about LaRoche, wouldn’t Jane’s reaction to her mentioning J.J. as a potential suspect be stronger if he knew what his friend did in the past? Maybe Lisbon has been keeping some things to herself too for good reasons… There has always been a very peculiar strand of trust between them.
It shows further when Jane threatens to tell her three of her secrets as proof that she can’t tell a lie. At first she accepts, then she thinks better of it and tells him that she refuses to play his mind games. He comments “wise call” … He’s been turning things into a game indeed, bantering with her and trying to distract her from the serious question he’s been left unanswered. But one can wonder what he was about to reveal about her: was it another tidbit of personal information like when he revealed her he knew she hadn’t told the truth about her holidays plans back in the early seasons? Or was it something more intimate, like the fetish talk he initiated in ‘Red Velvet Cupcakes’? Interestingly, the following scene features Rigsby telling Cho one of his secrets (his relationship with Van Pelt), while the stoic man already interjects that he already knows they’re having sex… Is that a way to hint that one of those Lisbon secrets that Jane knew about concerns her feelings?
VIS # 5: Lisbon and Jane meet Sean Barlow
After finally convincing Pete to give them a lead, Jane is once again confronted by his past: this time it’s Sean Barlow, a former friend/associate of his father. Even before meeting him, he’s introduced as an ambiguous and shady character by his association with Alex Jane, whom viewers know as a cold-hearted conman (‘Throwing Fire’). Another step in taken both in the investigation and in the realization of the bigger picture RJ has been painting for him: Jane and Lisbon drive to Venice Beach in Los Angeles to meet the psychic. Jane seems more and more unsettled; while he let Lisbon interrogate Pete and Sam with him, he asked her to let him talk to Pete alone when they returned and, now, he asks her to wait outside, which she refuses.
The dialog with the sinister man showed Bruno Heller’s mastery at broaching a character in a few deep lines. Indeed, the older man seems pretty eager to plant the seeds of doubt in their minds, particularly Lisbon’s.
1) First, he showers Lisbon with details about her secretive partner: under the pretext of talking about the rather safe topic of Patrick’s “wicked” great-grandfather who he “loved”, Barlow tries to prepare Lisbon for his little speech about the man himself. Because wickedness and being lovable are two characteristics her Jane owns in spade too… When Lisbon swallows the bait and asks about the “wicked” part, Barlow introduces a less safe topic: the fact that the Janes (including Patrick) are no-believers (which he gets Teresa to agree is “a sad thing”) who use the faith others have to steal from them… It’s pretty interesting that he uses present tense to describe the Janes’ cons since, given that he’s “been following (Jane’s) doings”, he must know that he stopped his psychic act a decade ago… Are there out there other members of the Jane family ? Or is he implying that Patrick, who is presented as intrinsically a conman, is also trying to manipulate Teresa’s faith and affection to get something out of her?
2) That smiling albeit less than friendly little introduction helps him pose as the real psychic, who would give them valuable advice. His second step is to get in the open the very sensitive question of Lisbon’s feelings: to prove to her that him not having an alibi for his niece’s murder isn’t really significant, he swiftly turns the tables by reading where herself was that night: “Laying in bed, think of Patrick”… What was presented as a psychic reading can be explained: he may have deduced it from their obvious closeness. After all, Patrick trusts her enough to accept to let her accompany him here, and if Paddy’s behavior in ‘Fugue in Red’ is any indication of his ways before meeting Angela, Barlow couldn’t think of any reason either for a cop to stick up with him other than wanting to sleep with him… That would make it an educated guess. The last possibility would be that Lisbon has been watched that night, which may have interesting and pretty dark implications about the older man… Those three possibilities match the usual tricks of a fake psychic: observation, educated guesses and inside information via an accomplice. Either way, that line about Lisbon laying in bed thinking of her partner and being “a little bit in love with him” is embarrassingly ambiguous for Lisbon: of course she would be thinking about Jane, who was keeping to himself RJ’s possible identity. Yet the mention of the bed adds a rather suggestive note that hints that Barlow is really able to read her most intimate thoughts.
3) At the same time, Barlow’s remark about Jane being “secretive and controlling” is also a way to make her feel the strain of their relationship: it reminds of Brett Stiles’ words that Jane has been taking over her team and her life. Even more since both men might have implied that their unbalanced relationship was affecting her work, Brett by mentioning her team, Barlow by comparing her nightly thoughts to his alibi (suggesting that somehow that kind of thoughts is kind of prohibited).
4) Since Jane stays impassive and tries to bring up again the crime, Barlow then broaches another subject to destabilize him: RJ is a psychic, that’s why he is always a step ahead of him. That seems the main point he’s been trying to make all along. Following his logic Barlow himself is a real psychic, so he’s able to detect another as RJ., Plus, Jane is not to be trusted: he’s from a family of lying thieves and his judgment is not sound because his all-knowing nemesis has already mastered his mind… That theory is admittedly a way to tell Jane that his niece hasn’t been a victim of the serial killer (it’s probable that he wants to indirectly incriminate Roddy Turner, whom he hates), yet his insistence may hint that the mysterious man has another goal in mind when trying to spook and manipulate Jane and Lisbon…
VIS # 6: Jane and Lisbon in the car after talking with Barlow
Sometime after leaving the older man, Jane and Lisbon are again talking in the car. Instead of calmly addressing the huge elephant in the room (Lisbon’s feelings), they both start talking at the same time. Jane lets her start and when she begins to utter something he might not like (“I can’t work like this”), he interrupts her. He tells her what he wanted to let her know: that Barlow was right, that he’s “secretive and controlling”. That’s a way to apologize to her for what he asks her to do and the things he’s been hiding from her: that’s probably his most sincere apology to her ever, far deeper than the blanket “I’m sorry” he gave her after the Vegas/Lorelei debacle in ‘The Crimson Ticket’… Still, he focuses on the part of Sean’s talk that concerned him: in doing so, he carefully avoids the part that was about her and her love for him…
In a way, that talk which turned in a non-talk echoes the scene where Lisbon asked Jane what he meant when he told her he loved her before shooting at her (‘The Crimson Hat’): he answer was to deflect her question, just like here he puts emphasis in his fault to avoid asking her about her feelings.
Which leads us to another point: what was Lisbon about to tell him? That she couldn’t keep avoiding the matter of their mutual feelings anymore? That she couldn’t keep accepting that he only told her part of the truth at best, like he was doing with his list? Or that she was tired of working with him when it’s becoming apparent that there was not enough trust and too many feelings between them? Like those mysterious secrets Jane threatened to reveal about her earlier, this question will remain unanswered as well. Anyway, it seems that those meaningful talks both of them keep having in cars since the beginning are shifting towards dangerous territory: before, they concerned quite serious matters, like revenge or RJ (‘Red Moon’) ; about Lorelei in ‘The Crimson Ticket’), still, they’re turning more and more personal. In a way, it reminds of the tension-filled moments in the car when listening to the radio talk-show in ‘Red Velvet Cupcakes’.
But purposely and insistently not telling anything about something is also a form of acknowledgement. Jane used the pretext of not remembering what he said, even though he kept using afterwards every occasion to prove her how well his memory palace worked. Lisbon let alone Lorelei’s remark that he was in love with her, yet she yelled that she was not “his girlfriend’. In the same manner, Jane not asking her about her own feelings towards him is an indirect way of letting her know that he knows about them, that Barlow was right about them too, yet he chooses to ignore the pending matter in favour of preserving their status quo… at least for now.
VIS # 7: the ending
1) inside information: Jane doesn’t remember telling anyone about this particular memory, yet he could have let it slip when he had his breakdown after the murders. It’s pretty probable that Sophie Miller has asked him about his past and/or other relatives during therapy. Even if he didn’t specifically told her about the scene with the little Lily, he might have mentioned her at some moment… Given RJ’s interest in Jane, there is a pretty good possibility that he has read her files and/or asked someone from her staff.
2) observation: someone may have known Jane at the time and recalled that he might have been even a bit moved by the little girl. Someone like Barlow himself: a sinister man who only considered his niece as a property and who may fits the profile of RJ’s cold and sociopathic accomplices.
3) educated guess: the Barlows were close friends of his family. Given that Jane had a difficult father who probably wasn’t prone to affection, and that he’s been presented in ‘Throwing Fire’ as a sensitive kid, it would be rather logical that he would identify and focus on Lily’s happy relation with her father, who died shortly afterwards, a relation that he probably didn’t have with his own and that his younger self might have been craving.
The thing in those three possible explanations is that RJ didn’t need to know *that* specific memory: when Jane would recognize the young Lily, he would necessarily have some memories of her, crystallised and idealized by the time that had passed. It was almost automatic that her death would hit very close to home for Jane. And he would hence be more susceptible to believe the second part of RJ’s prediction: that he knew beforehand the seven names on the list… which he could have known either by 1) making more than one video with Lorelei (Kirkland’s stealing information would then confirm which version was to be used) for example, 2) by writing down the names of the men who couldn’t be eliminated as suspects (it would be faster for him, since he’s been keeping tabs on the consultant and since he already knew what characteristics were bound to be more suspicious). Or 3) he knew which men were most suspicious because every one of them is hiding something… like that they are all working for him (see Bertram and Kirkland working closely together).
Anyway, what is certain is that RJ can’t be a real psychic: first because the show hasn’t given any hints that it might favor the supernatural route. Then because what RJ did to Kristina in S3 indicates irony towards her line of work: that he would share it would be a bit illogical; but mostly because he admitted in the video that he knew about the list because “Lorelei told” him. And his way to lead Jane to his minion ensured that Jane found her: even if it was an easy guess given Jane’s cleverness with cases, the red-headed middle-aged woman matched Lennon’s status somehow as a social worker/shelter employee.
That leads us to the song at the ending. It’s “Something’s Gotten Hold Of My Heart” by Gene Pitney:
“Something`s gotten hold of my heart
Keeping my soul and my senses apart
Something`s gotten into my life
Cutting its way through my dreams like a knife
Turning me up, turning me down
Making me smile and making me frown”.
Those lyrics obviously match what Jane must feel towards the looming threat that represents the video he’s watching while Lisbon is returning the baby girl to her father. Yet, it may also hold other meanings: it was featured in 1967, which corresponds more or less to Jane’s birth, meaning that the song is a way to allude to his childhood too. Moreover, it’s a love song and Lisbon is visible when the lyrics begin playing: she’s also in Jane’s thoughts at the moment. It’s even more convincing when we read the rest of the lyrics which aren’t heard in the show:
“Yeah something has invaded my nights
Painting my sleep with a colour so bright
Changing the grey, changing the blue
Scarlet for me and scarlet for you”…
Jane may be afraid that RJ’s threats may be directed towards Lisbon at some point: there may be some “scarlet” for both of them in the future; they’re both in danger.
Last, the word “knife” (RJ’s favorite MO) is sang when the camera focuses on Barlow brooding alone: is that a way to hint that Barlow has played a sinister part in RJ’s plan, since afterwards the last word sung, “frown” resonates with Jane’s pensive and worried face on screen?
2) Seven usual (or less usual) suspects:
In sync with Lorelei enouncing the seven names predicted by RJ in Jane’s list, Lisbon puts down the seven pictures matching those names, a bit like one would their cards when winning a poker game, enlightening once more the notions of strategy and bluff simmering in this season. And now, the two partners are facing:
1- Bret Stiles: the leader of Visualize is a bit old for having been at the farm to paint the first smiley in ‘The Red Barn’, yet his past is pretty dark; it’s been alluded to in ‘His Thoughts Were Red Thoughts’ that he might have something to do with the death of the former cult leader. Bret has showed since the beginning a marked interest for Jane; he’s been watching him and his team and has been taunting him with the fact that he has inside information (about Kristina in the beginning of season 3). He’s also known for recruiting law enforcement officers and has even tried to convert Grace when she was still feeling down about Craig’s death/betrayal… Actually, Stiles is probably the more plausible candidate for a charismatic Moriarty Mentalist-like –actor Malcom McDowell even commented about having been thinking that his character was RJ when viewers were convinced that Carter was the serial killer, if I recall correctly.
Beside, him being RJ would put Jane’s character under a very interesting light, since he befriended him to some extent… It would give intriguing shades of an unexpected moral dilemma, reminiscent of the Hitchcockian atmosphere of ‘Red Sails in The Sunset’: what would be more ironic than Jane secretly meeting his nemesis to ask his help in breaking their common mistress out of jail (in order to catch the man himself, no less)? That would be a very interesting situation… It’s also quite remarkable that Stiles gave him pretty much the same advice as Carter: when Jane asked him the favor of getting Lorelei out of jail, he told the younger man: “let this be my favor to you: let it go. The whole idea. It’s just not worth it.” Carter’s advice when he was posing as RJ was to build himself a new life: ““Forget about me. I’m not worth ruining your life over”… is it a coincidence that RJ had indeed stopped killing except for answering to Jane’s manoeuvres (the morgue guy in Rosalind Harker’s closet, Panzer, Lorelei), like Partridge pointed out, and that his announced new set of killings is a response to him changing “the rules”?
Also, Brett commented in ‘Red Sails in The Sunset’ that “any task can be accomplished as long as it’s broken down into manageable pieces”, foreshadowing Jane’s huge work in reducing the numbers of the people he met in a decade to an handful of possible suspects…
2- Gale Bertram: the director of the CBI has been a prime suspect ever since he quoted Blake in season 3 and his behavior has been increasingly suspicious since the poker game in ‘Red in Tooth And Claws’. Again, if he turned out to be RJ, it would be interesting that Jane helped him in getting better at bluffing and masking his strategy in a poker game… the irony! The man also is a pragmatist who doesn’t bother much with feelings: he tried to let Jane rot in jail after Carter’s murder (which means his goal and RJ’s were the same at the time: to get rid of Jane); he tried to separate him from his best ally, Lisbon, by replacing her by Haffner, a man working for Visualize… And, of course, he collaborates pretty closely with Kirkland. So far, he is the man who has the more connections with the other suspects: Kirkland, Haffner, Reede Smith (who works for Alexa Schultz, which whom Bertram stroke a deal), Partridge (who is a CBI employee)… A fairly intriguing point given that his name may be a reference to Christie’s “At Bertram’s Hotel”, a novel featuring a secret criminal organisation hidden in a seemingly benign environment…
3- Bob Kirkland is another character who has been suspected for a long time: he’s been watching Jane since he got a job as a consultant for the CBI and he spied on his list of candidates for RJ. And Lisbon herself, who liked the man at first, considers him odd now and is aware that he doesn’t tell anything useful… It’s becoming pretty obvious that the man is investigating for personal purposes, even though the question of his goal remains unknown: is he trying to get RJ for himself, or is he trying to cover the serial killer tracks? The murder of Lennon after asking him if he recognized him as well as his weird collaboration with Bertram seem to point to a dark interpretation. Still, things aren’t clear enough: neither he nor Bertram showed any sign of being subordinated to the other; they knew each other enough to make personal commentaries, but so far it’s rather hard to infer a lot of their interaction… Either way, the fact that Kirkland knew about Jane’s board might give an explanation to RJ’s eerie accuracy in guessing which names were on the list.
Still, there is an important flaw in that theory: like it’s been noted many times before, Stiles would be a bit obvious as RJ and Bertram would not seem clever enough to compete with Jane… and the same could be applied to Kirkland. If we are to believe RJ is brilliant enough to stay two steps ahead of Jane, is that plausible that he’d turn out to be someone like Bob, who managed in a few episodes to attract Lisbon’s distrust and to tip his hand to Jane (who was suspicious after Lennon’s sudden death and who is aware that his attic has been visited)?
4- The same applies to Raymond Haffner, who couldn’t even hide his connection to Visualize from Lisbon. His embarrassment when she asked him about having stayed at the farm when he was a “kid” makes him at the same time pretty suspicious and a bit too obvious as a possible RJ… In fact it’s even worse with him, since he has the two flaws described above: he’s too obvious and not clever enough. So, except if he’s very good at hiding his true colors, he would be more credible as a handyman than as a criminal genius. But who knows?
5- Reede Smith, the FBI agent working with Mancini for Alexa Schultz is another example of the writers’ taste for dramatic turns of events… and twisted sense of humor: indeed, the writing team spent last year hiatus leaking spoilers in order to build up some expectations about the new FBI agents introduced –briefly- in the season premiere. Still, the attention was purposely focused on Mancini, who antagonised Jane and showed a (slight) interest in Teresa. But who really paid attention to the more discreet Smith? What do we know about him after all? Only that he woks for Alexa, who in turn works for Kirkland or at least is not opposed to giving him information… It’s possible that RJ had hidden behind the appearance of a subaltern, while actually leading the game. It’s also plausible that he would have tipped Jane off about having a mole in the FBI in order to hide the fact that himself belonged here in fact…
And his first name might be a word play on Red/ Reede, since the sonorities are quite close. Moreover, I may very well be reading too much into this, but “Mr Smith” was the name of the serial killer in Steeman’s masterpiece, the classic murder mystery “The Murderer Lives At Number 21” (the novel, not the movie, whose storyline has been a bit changed): in the book, the elusive murderer manages to escape the police for a long time… because there are actually three of them working as a team and providing the others with alibis when the need arises…
6- Thomas McAllister was another almost forgotten character. He appeared in the second episode of the first season as a sheriff during a case. Like Partridge, he’s been introduced very early in the storyline, in opposition to Kirkland and Smith who are recent characters. That might do for a fairly ironic revelation too: imagine the reaction if viewers were to realize that RJ has been briefly introduced when they were not even familiar with the protagonist himself?
At the time, the guy seemed creepy enough to pass as the killer for Rigsby, who attacked him when he approached Grace (who was used as a bait for the murderer). McAllister taunted Jane when they met, calling him on his supposed “psychic powers”. Jane answered with his own brand of provocation, by winning several rounds of rock paper scissors, effectively proving his observational skills and ridiculing the sheriff at the same time. So, Jane has been playing another kind of game with the man, and has managed to twist the rules as well. Another interesting point is that that episode, ‘Red Hair And Silver Tape’ featured a married couple of killers going after young red-haired women… and that same sort of killers has been represented by Carter and his wife. Moreover, the minion in ‘Red John’s Rules’ has red hair too. Those little details might be overlooked, but since the three episodes have been written by Bruno Heller, it could very well make sense too…
7- Brett Partridge is the last name in the list and the only suspect featured in the episode. Jane despises him because he’s a ghoul and he often comes up with morbid fantasies as theories for the murder cases they are investigating. Still, the change of attitude that the consultant showed at the beginning of the episode indicated that he’s very aware that his inept behavior may be a façade. As the character has been discussed at length before, I’ll only remind that he showed a suspicious interest in RJ, an equally suspicious antagonism to Jane and that his name “Partridge” might be an allusion to Blake’s painting “A Brace Of Partridges”, which may explain the bird theme visible through the season.
As a conclusion, several details tend to hint that there might be an organisation of many men behind the name of “RJ”. On one hand the shadow of sect Visualize looming around at least two suspects –Haffner and Stiles- and the fact that some of them are effectively working together, and, in the other hand, the names of Bertram and Smith, might indicate that there could be more than one RJ in the list. After all, Renfrew wrote on the wall “He is man…” and a possible interpretation is that he wanted to tell Jane there were “many” men under the mask of the elusive killer. That may explain how RJ had come up with his own list: what if there were all RJ, assuming in turn the role of the master to seduce a new minion into submission so that they only knew one of them at the time? The concept isn’t new and it has been used in many classic murder mysteries, from Steeman to Agatha Christie’s “Crime of the Orient-Express”. And, yes, the idea is fun to toy with, even though it may be proven wrong in a few months…
Food for Thought:
This episode was a peak in Jane’s quest for finding RJ and it was enhanced by street names such as “Stoney Ridge” and “Ashley Ridge Road”.
It also contained many, many reminders of previous episodes interlaced with the main plot. For instance, ‘Strawberry and Cream’ was indirectly alluded to with the detail of the phone number leading to the minion scribbled on the wall. Back then, Gupta had written an address on the wall too; the contrast is that Jane managed to get in his way, only he did not this time. Miriam Gottlieb, the social worked who was friends with RJ has a similar status than Lennon, the shelter employee in ‘There Will Be Blood’, which consequences are showing in this episode. And Lisbon and Jane waiting for her in her house remind of Jane meeting Lorelei then Lisbon on Orchid Lane… Both in ‘The Crimson Hat’ and now, Lorelei has been delivering to Jane a message from her master.
At the same time, Heller tried to gather the recurring themes that coursed through this season, giving it coherence:
1) the fisherman and fish theme which represents the struggle between Jane an his nemesis is alluded to (the fish tank Jane used to catch Miriam Gottlieb as well as Barlow having a workshop at Venice Beach).
2) There is a yellow orchid-looking flower on the table when Jane and Lisbon are talking to Sam and Pete (see above in VIS#3).
3) The complex family theme is represented by Patrick contacting people from his childhood, talking about the Janes (there were various examples of people meeting again long lost relatives in the recent episodes and every one ended in tragedy). Moreover, the notion of leaving an abusive blood-related family in favor of a more accepting surrogate is illustrated by Eileen, who chose love over the Barlows… like Jane did with Angela when he left the carnies.
4) Last, not least, many kind of spectacles has been present recently (musicals, magic shows, and so on). It may prepare us viewers for the idea that RJ is too putting a clever show for Jane: the whole psychic thing is a smoke screen.
Indeed, the episode seems to woven together the threads coursing through the season, as well as it opens possibilities for the new one: again, the question is left unanswered about who is the fish and who is the fisherman. Who will get the other first, Jane or RJ? The rules have changed and a new bloody and pressing game is beginning… Meanwhile, the orchid reminds of the possibility of a new love for Jane, tainted by the shadow of his nemesis looming over them… Yet, again, there is the surrogate family that is the team offering comfort and help for the duo: even if they choose not to confide in them, the three younger agents have proved they are more than eager to protect their friends… while they’re all faced with another darker “family” of minions helping out their enemy.
Honorable Mentions: again, the cast was as fabulous as ever, particularly Simon Baker and Robin Tunney whose complicity onscreen add much to the characters. Special mention too to Michael Hogan who impersonated the mysterious Sean Barlow with the right amount of unsettling friendliness and creepiness. Also, Blake Neeley’s melodies added much to the atmosphere of the episode, like director Chris Long’s powerful filming (the scene where time speeds up while Jane is sleeping) and Bruno Heller’s very subtle writing… Ok, is there someone on this team I won’t be tempted to mention? Like I said, they were all pretty great…
Pet Peeve… or not?
To be fair, I got the feeling when I first watched the episode that there was something artificial in the way the different themes and new elements were woven together, but I couldn’t pinpoint exactly what … Upon watching it again, it dawned on me that Jane was unusually passive, towards his past (she lets Lisbon have a good look at his childhood, a thing he was more than reticent to share until then. He even talks about his father), but also in relation to Lisbon’s feelings (by simply not talking about them, he calmly lets her/us guess that he was already aware of them), and towards the new crime. He doesn’t really react to the slow realisation that he’s been lead on and even seems to weight the possibility that RJ has powers at some point, when he uncertainly accepts Lisbon’s assertions that what happens must be a coincidence… Like I said, it reminds of a Greek tragedy where the protagonist slowly discovers that he’s up against something much greater than him (fate/gods/…). Still, Jane is the kind of man who fights his fate, not a passive hero who struggles against destiny like a fish in a net: that passiveness is pretty unsettling. I really hope he will get back his pugnacity in the future: he will undoubtedly need it since if RJ keeps up his new game, I think “blood and tears” would be an accurate name for next season…
Reviewbrain: Or not…
Image by Chizuruchibi. Copyright Reviewbrain, May 2013. Not to be used without permission.
I’ll be holding out for a happy ending 🙂 Thank you to Mentalist cast/crew for making our favorite show. And thank you readers for being such awesome fans and a member of this fantastic community. Please don’t forget to reward Violet’s lovely efforts by rating her review. And please visit my artist @chizuruchibi on twitter. These two are the best partners a blogger can ever have. Love you both 🙂
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May 31st, 2013 at 8:07 pm
I had a good feeling witrh this finale, but I have to say, there was one thing that I didn’t…well, maybe it’s not that I didn’t appreciated it, I just felt kind of weird about it: on the crime scene, Partridge affirms that he ahs been the Crime scene investigator on all red john murders, right from the start. Now, I find it hard to believe, as it was said that Red John crossed over the Nevada border in at least one occasion, and the case was given to the CBI only few years after the killer started actually murdering. I wonder if it is a mistake, which is kind of weird, given the great staff of writers of the show, or if Patridge was just trying ti impress his fellow co-worker by telling him a lie.
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May 31st, 2013 at 8:24 pm
First of all, I love you Violet. Second of all, I love you. Third, I love your review 🙂
Just a few things to add. I think Jane being so unnerved stems from RJ’s looming threat. That, and that I believe the information Kirkland obtained from Jane’s attic was a decoy and that Jane kept his real suspect list to himself. Which is probably why he is so affected that RJ was able to predict it so perfectly.
With regards to Jane and Lisbon, I’ve always said his interest in her was more obvious than vice versa. In my book, this is the first season we’ve seen Lisbon react in a way that might actually give Jane hope of acquiring her affection. The fact that she didn’t try to qualify Barlow’s statement that she was thinking about Jane is a tacit hint that she’s starting to harbor romantic feelings as well. Jane’s interruption, I think wasn’t to stop her from saying something he didn’t want to hear, as much as he was saving her from having to confront him on an issue he’s already decided to solve in her favor; hence his apology saying that he should have gone first.
I can’t believe how far these two have come. More than that, I can’t believe how satisfying this episode was to me. I’ve always believed that RJ had been serious about retiring. And believed the reason Jane kept up the charade, even after RJ killed the SJQ is because he wanted to keep up the pretext, to not give RJ more incentive to start again. Partridge saying that the murders RJ committed after Strawberries and Cream “didn’t count” echoed my feelings on the matter. But RJ starting again, overtly threatening Jane is his way of telling him that the game is officially on again. And now, of all times, at the time where Jane and Lisbon are closer than ever, on the verge of a romance even, well, let’s just say Jane has plenty to be depressed about.
On the other hand, RJ upping the game hints that Jane has him plenty unnerved too. I’m sure Jane will soon realize this. Or if not, Lisbon will hopefully point it out to him.
With regards to the psychic angle, I think it was all-i-need who first mentioned that RJ might be Jane’s father. This episode is the first time I ever entertained this thought with any seriousness. If he is still alive, then I now see it as a real possibility. How else would he know about Jane’s “happy memory”, unless he was there?
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May 31st, 2013 at 9:07 pm
I guess I am the dissenting opinion here. I was extremely disappointed in the finale.
I thought the finale just was not very exciting. There was no tension and very little drama. The chase scene with the maid seemed thrown in because they felt they needed an action scene. It reminded me of There Will Be Blood when Lorelei started shooting at people in broad daylight. Totally contrived.
There are just too many plot holes in the Red John story. Jane ignored Rosalind Harker’s description of Red John. He also ignored the age range that he himself determined in Red Barn just this season. The only clues we have been given are Rosalind’s description, the Red Barn age range, and the handshake. Kirkland doesn’t fit the handshake clue.They ignored these major clues and gave us no explanation why. 5 of the 7 names on Jane’s list don’t fit if you use those clues. I don’t see the point in trying to follow the RJ story anymore. The writers have done a terrible job with this arc, and I can’t suspend my disbelief any further. I’m glad the rest of you still enjoy it, but I don’t.
If we had dozens of clues over the years, I would be more forgiving if the writers couldn’t make every single clue fit. But we only have 3… they should all fit. That is not too much to ask. If you add up all the RJ episodes, we have less than a season’s worth of material. There is no excuse to screw this up. Why should I even care who Red John is if I can’t believe anything that I see on my screen? It seems anything we “learn” in one Red John episode is wiped out in the next. Even worse, they don’t even explain it. They just pretend it never happened.
Some people say Jane could have been wrong about the truthfulness of these clues. I’ve had some serious issues with his logic all along. Why does he believe Rosalind? She could be an accomplice or lying because she loves RJ. Why does he believe Lorelei? She is a minion. But my doubts don’t matter. This is Jane’s list, not mine. He believes Rosalind…he asked her to confirm Timothy Carter was not RJ and we have seen nothing since to indicate he was now doubting her. Jane believes the age range. To now just ignore that, and make no mention of it, is extremely poor writing. I feel like this is a slap in the face to viewers who pay attention. I feel like the writers are insulting my intelligence by assuming I will accept whatever they put in front of me without a protest.
Jane has always been certain Lorelei was telling the truth. Now, for the first time, he says “assuming Lorelei was telling the truth”. Now, when he finally admits she could have lied, he makes the handshake the one clue he considers. He said Lorelei had no idea what she said..the handshake clue was accidentally said in anger. Now it seems she did realize it, because she told RJ. This is inconsistent. Nobody remembers every word said in anger months earlier..especially if they didn’t realize they said anything significant in the first place.
I actually laughed out loud (I doubt it was the reaction Bruno was going for) when the social worker took the pill and killed herself in the police car. Now two season finales have had a minion die in the back of the police car before they can even get to the station. We have now seen multiple accomplices kill themselves to avoid being arrested. Now they kill ANOTHER accomplice like this? I just find this extremely unrealistic, not to mention repetitive and predictable.
I hate the implication/possibility that RJ can read Jane’s mind. They were turning RJ into a comic book villain before this happened. He knows everything, people willingly kill and die for him. Next season I expect him to fly and apparate. I don’t find him believable- unless he is Voldemort and uses the Imperious curse on his minions and stole Harry’s invisibility cloak to spy on Jane. Maybe the writers will give a non-supernatural explanation for how he knew Jane’s childhood memory and his suspects next season, but i have little faith. They have left too many loose ends in the past.
The reason I LOVED the show, especially in the first two seasons, was the team interaction. Now, it is All Jane All The Time. Yes, he is the star, but the rest of the team used to have substantial roles. Now they are barely more than extras. I realize Amanda’s pregnancy limited her character this season, but that does not necessitate marginalizing Cho and Rigsby. The show suffers when they don’t make use of their full team. Jane can’t carry the show by himself.
The Sean Barlow scene bothered me. Putting aside the fact that I just don’t find it convincing that he could read Lisbon like that, I also felt it added no new information. We knew Lisbon had feelings for Jane when she almost cried when he admitted feelings for Lorelei recently. Even I am convinced of that half of Jisbon. Yet, despite the fact that the viewers already know Lisbon’s feelings (and so does Jane…he is not an idiot) the writers decide to embarrass Lisbon by pointing this out in front of Jane. I feel those lines were only there to tease the shippers. It felt contrived.
Finally, while this was not an issue in the finale itself, over the course of the season I felt they turned Jane into an asshole. At various points he was bitchy, snarky, condescending, hostile, and obnoxious to Lisbon. Lisbon became a doormat. She used to be a strong kick-ass woman. Not anymore. It is painful to watch. These factors combined to greatly reduce my enjoyment of the show. I now actually dislike Patrick Jane. I think he is a selfish, arrogant, immature, insufferable jerk. This is a bigger problem for me than even the plot holes (and I HATE the plot holes). I see no reason to believe Jane will suddenly be less of a dick next season. I can’t deal with it anymore, and I will not be watching next season. I only wish I had stopped watching after season 3. It hasn’t been the same since the Bradley Whitford erasure.
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May 31st, 2013 at 9:33 pm
I completely agree with you, Reviewbrain. Also, thank you for this review, as well as Violet, I agree with most of your mentions and observations. This episode was amazing in my eyes, especially with all the Jisbon scenes, the crime plot, and the new advancements and unraveling in the Red John arc. I definitely think that the two of them are in love with each other, but that Lisbon is starting to realize it now more than ever, as she was going to say something in the car about how she couldn’t work [like this] anymore, perhaps regarding their platonic love? As well as when they were in the car before, she didn’t want Jane to tell her three things that he knew about her that she thought he wouldn’t know, which I think were regarding her love for him. When Seam Barlow mentioned that she was ‘a little bit in love with him’, Lisbon’s reaction was the same as when Bosco once asked her about Jane, stating, “He closes cases, is that all it is?” Jane being Jane, will just let these questions float around, perhaps enjoying the possibility of their platonic love, but afraid of knowing the entire truth to Lisbon’s feelings, and avoided confronting his own feelings, as Red John has his attention, and he does want to protect Lisbon, as he once said, “I’m always going to save you [Lisbon], whether you like it or not.” If Jane loses Lisbon like he lost Angela and Charlotte, he will be utterly devastated, and so he has kept those thoughts at arm’s length, or as far from Red John’s suspicions, as far away as you can keep the person you love away from yourself, that is. (But after they both left their session with Sean, I adore how they asked each other if they were okay, a small, but significant sign of affection in the strengthening of their relationship over the years.) Has not anyone noticed how Jane would not trust anyone in the world with any information about Red John, but that he not only lets Lisbon know about the seven suspects, but he allows himself to trust her with the information, and that he allows her to help him on his mission. Jisbon ❤
Regarding Red John, I believe that Partridge is the prime suspect, and firmly believe that he is Red John. My reasons being, A) He fits the RJ profile perfectly, as described by the blind woman, being of average height, and without facial hair. B) His voice matches that of RJ, when he had kidnapped Jane C) The actor who plays Partridge is 44, which perfectly fits the age frame for Red John. D) The speech between Brett and his colleague before Jane and Lisbon enter the crime scene, stating that killing Lorelei Martins 'didn't count' just seemed so sinister, and that just when they left, Jane knew that Red John had been there.
Season 6 has so much in store, and Amanda Righetti said that by the end of the season, they will catch Red John, and The Mentalist will be over. Mentalistas, we are so close to the end, is anyone else disappointed by how close we are to the end of the series?
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May 31st, 2013 at 9:44 pm
P, I groaned when the minion took herself. It’s not the same reaction you had but I believe our reasons were the same. It was repetitive. Almost ridiculous even. But as a writer I can appreciate how difficult it is to keep a show running on a main antagonist while needing to constantly delay his capture. Although, I had wishes Mentalist would have broken this pattern of crime shows when Jane shot Carter in season three. I was ecstatic when that happened and I still believe it would have been amazing. But apparently most fans want RJ. So most fans get RJ still hanging around.
But I have to say that I think the writers have been quite fair with regards to the other characters too. We’ve gotten a major Cho arc last season, plenty of Chigsby and Rigspelt moments this season…it may not be much compared with Jane’s arc but it’s there. And I think Jane is being much nicer than he has been as well, albeit in his own way so… But I understand your frustration with the plot holes. My only explanation is that information is being intentionally unaddressed to maintain an element of surprise, either for us or for Jane. Or both. With regards to RJ, I don’t think Jane has any way of knowing how old he is…not does Rosalind for that matter, hence his inclusion of older suspects.
I won’t encourage you to stick with the show if it’s causing you so much grief. I will miss your comments though. Plus there’s probably just one more season left and I’m sure it’ll be better. It has to be, they’ve been setting up the stage for it all season 😉
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May 31st, 2013 at 10:51 pm
I’m very touched… Thank you so much, my dear friend. I love you too! 🙂
“That, and that I believe the information Kirkland obtained from Jane’s attic was a decoy and that Jane kept his real suspect list to himself. Which is probably why he is so affected that RJ was able to predict it so perfectly.””
Actually, that’s one of the (many) points I’d like the writers to explain: to what extent is Kirkland involved and to what extent is/was Jane controlling the situation? I thought it was a decoy too, but what took me by surprise was the scene where he was burning his board: what use getting rid of it (and in private) if it was in fact that useless?
I agree with everything you wrote, from the progress Jane and Lisbon have been making to RJ having decided to retire by killing off his character (Carter) until Jane brought him back from the shadows… And, yes, there is the possibility that Jane’s father has a role to play… it would be interesting to have more details about him.
Thanks again, Reviewbrain! 🙂
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May 31st, 2013 at 11:12 pm
Oh P, I feel your pain. I’ve pretty much resigned myself to the fact that with whoever Red John turns out to be it will involve retconning and half-truths about the ‘facts’ we’ve been given about him (or who knows maybe it will turn out to be a woman).
Don’t even get me started on the sheer incompetence they had the CBI demonstrate this episode. Cops pursuing a vehicle through a red light in heavy traffic with their siren only on intermittently? They searched a *Red John minion* so haphazardly that they left a cyanide pill on her? Can they please make Lisbon and crew look at least a little bit good at their jobs?
The Bradley Whitford erasure was such a cheap stunt, IMHO, by Heller and the writers. Such a common sleazy sweeps move for a season finale. They want fireworks in the finale but they don’t want to actually have to follow through with what happened or move the story forward significantly, hence the great undo of 4×1. Also, maybe (I hope and would love to be pleasantly surprised) I’m wrong, but I have such a hard to believing that the reveal of the ‘real’ Red John will ever be able to hold a candle to the food court scene in Strawberries and Cream. It was electrifying. The writers had a perfect, brilliant end to the Red John arc and they threw it away.
All of that said, what keeps me watching are most of the characters and not who Red John is, but how Jane will choose (if they give him the chance) to resolve it. I feel like (or at least hope) Bruno Heller set up the true arc of the show in Red John’s Friends and Red John’s Footsteps. Jane wants revenge, Lisbon wants him to ‘choose life’. While he obviously will always have to live with the loss of his family, Jane could have a wonderful life ahead of him if he chooses it. So I hope to see him choose life and love over revenge, death and hate.
As for Jane’s extraordinary assholishness this season, this may be Pollyanna-ish on my part, but I choose to view it as a case of things having to get worse before they get better. As things with Red John come to a head (a really awful boil lancing analogy keeps popping into my head), Jane’s probably going to keep getting more and more insufferable. He has to exorcise his personal demons, not just Red John, before he can move on with his life. It more than likely won’t happen, but I would love Jane and Lisbon to have an honest to goodness fight over his behavior, one that doesn’t get resolved by the end of the episode. In fairness, while he was pretty awful this year, I do think Jane has been far, far, far more open with Lisbon than in past seasons where he was less of dick to her, which I think probably means more to her than his being nice but keeping her completely out of the loop.
Sorry for the novel:)
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May 31st, 2013 at 11:17 pm
Thank you Violet for the review and RB for your comments! this is a very thorough review and for the time being (as I need to re-watch this weekend in order to comment properly) just a couple of points:
1) Violet asks in her review what was Lisbon going to tell Jane in the car. Well, I am 100% convinced that Lisbon would never, ever, bring up the matter of her feelings for Jane or their odd relationship just like that. She has been so incredibly private always that I’d find that possibility completely out of character. She has always either negated or ignored anything related to her feelings for Jane. I don’t think a cold reading from a Psychic would make her start spilling the beans. She even holds it together during the Lorelei debacle (just, but still). She’s nowhere near ready to acknowledge her feelings for him in my opinion. It was a nice red herring from the writers I think.
2) Red John: I totally agree with RB that RJ is unnerved by Jane. He tries to put pressure on Jane, but he’s the one coming out of retirement to deal wit him; i.e, Jane is also putting pressure on RJ. And no matter how super wickedly clever you are, pressure means mistakes. RJ will make a mistake…and that will be his downfall.
All from me for now…and really glad to have the review 🙂
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May 31st, 2013 at 11:22 pm
Hello all! Thank you so much to Violet & ReviewBrain for all these great reviews over the past few seasons – you’ve encouraged me to participate openly in an online discussion, which is something I’ve never done, and I’ve enjoyed reading and responding very much. So thanks!
Ok, my goodness, where to start.
Yes, P, I agree with you re: minion topping herself. I love Bruno’s episodes, so I disappointed that apparently not one of the core team thought this might happen – especially given Jane’s obsession with Lorelei and indeed Lennon. Also the CD-crushing moment. I can pretend that Jane has stored all the info and that RJ is clever enough not to leave any trace or clue, but really. You’d think that Lisbon would have thought it worth a try to send it down to forensics or whatever. Also, yes, please please can we have some more teamwork next season? I think it’s important for Jane’s character growth. 😉
However, I thought it was interesting that Heller introduced the idea of real psychics. Not because I think that that’s where the show is heading, but because it was the basis of Jane’s pre-murder mentalist/carny act. The fakery of it certainly contributed to the death of his wife and child. It feels like something’s slowly coming full circle there, but I’m not sure what.
I loved the themes of faith and trust in this episode, I really did. To see Patrick actually doubting himself – wondering if he could actually have been a mark all along – was kind of fascinating. I also think the idea of Lisbon’s honesty/transparency is interesting too – mostly because I can think of several examples in which she has participated/lied/acted along in various Jane schemes – rather convincingly! Not saying that she’s dodgy, because I love her, but there’s a precedent there.
Regarding their relationship and the car moment: I have to say, I don’t think Lisbon was about to declare herself. Given what we know about her, I personally think it’s more likely she was going to talk about Jane not telling her the names on his list; that she couldn’t work knowing that he’s withholding something so important. My take, anyway!
As regards motifs, I thought it was interesting that the motel was called “Torchlight” (Torchlite?) given the play in Behind the Red Curtain. Also I think the word “nautica” is on the wall in Jane’s attic, which seems to relate to the fishing thread.
The song was an interesting choice for all characters concerned in the montage – I also wondered whether a snippet of it was also played in the flashback scene with the balancing child Eileen?? (A musical echo, if you will). I’m not good with notes or melodies, so it would be good if someone could confirm!
Which brings me to my current favourite topic of repeated language throughout the episodes… Lisbon keeps saying “coincidence” in this episode and is it Valentina on this board who always says that nothing in TM is coincidence!?!! Hmmm. Then we’ve got the already-classic “a little bit in love with” – such a nice bookend.
Lisbon also asks Jane, “How would he [RJ] even know about this place [carny stopover]?” – I think this is a very, very pertinent question… Yes, Bruno, how would he know!? RJ also seemed very angry in his letter to Jane, which makes me think that he’s actually frightened.
And finally – names. Miriam – Biblical. Moses’ sister, right? Something to do with babies, anyway. And Sean – Irish for John, I believe.
🙂
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May 31st, 2013 at 11:33 pm
I’ll miss your comments, P! I think your ‘dissenting’ thoughts and beliefs generally make for great discussion. 🙂 I hope you do come back next year – maybe your curiosity about the final resolution will win out… 😉
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May 31st, 2013 at 11:38 pm
“I guess I am the dissenting opinion here. I was extremely disappointed in the finale.”
P, I was pretty disappointed too and didn’t know what to make of it until I rewatched the whole thing and started analyzing it more closely. Then I realized it was not that bad. But it was still one of my less favorite finales from the show.
I second you all on the absurdity of killing off the minion again in a car. In fact, my thoughts were: “why don’t they escort the woman themselves? They have to know she won’t make it alive to the CBI building otherwise!” But I guess they didn’t want another possible lead surviving to the new season like Lorelei, so they got rid of her as soon as they could without giving it much thought…
I agree with you too about Jane discarding the only clues he got over the years. Yet, I wonder if he really discarded them completely, or if he used them to some extent: we don’t know how he came up with the names on the list. We don’t know why he discarded some men and chose others as suspicious. Some of those seven guys match some of the clues, other don’t, but I guess there is a reason why he chose them one way or the other. And don’t forget that we can’t be really sure about any of those clues:
-the description given by Rosalind seemed pretty believable, yet the last time she was featured on the show, her attitude was quite ambiguous: was she hypnotized? Did she realize her Roy had entered her house with a corpse? Was she an accomplice who told him about her identifying Carter, then who called Jane to lure him into her house? Either way, she proved that she was eager to be manipulated, since she knew that her boyfriend was RJ, yet she accepted to see him again and was eager to believe whatever he said. Then, what she had told about him was questionable, since she could have been influenced/corrupted/hypnotized before to give them false information (RJ knew Jane would find her the very first time the consultant met her, since he took the time to draw a smiley face on her wall to attract his attention). And the fact that Jane asked for her help with Carter doesn’t mean much for her credibility: he knew beforehand that he wasn’t RJ, that doesn’t prove he trusted the woman 100% then either.
– the barn. We didn’t get much information there either, actually: a “kid” could apply to someone pretty young or older but with a youthful appearance/behavior. It’s subject to interpretation, imho.
– the handshake bothers me, because there are very few men who actually shook Jane’s hand onscreen… They’re already probably cheating with this one…
Therefore, I agree with you P: they are bound to discard some clues or at least to interpret them in a way us viewers probably didn’t think about. Because for me, the only way to make all the clues fit is to use the multiple killers solution (many RJ working as a team), and I’m not sure they are taking that route…
About Jane being an asshole, I guess my opinion of him in the first season was worse, because he didn’t seem to care for anything other than revenge then. Now that he’s proven that he’s capable of caring for someone, even though he still lies, manipulates and makes the worse mistakes, I can be more forgiving. Truth be told, I was much more cynic about the character than I am now, even if what he’s been doing lately is worse…
I would be very sorry if you really decide to stop watching, P, because your comments are always very insightful and precise (even if we don’t always agree on everything… but that’s what makes things interesting! ;)) I understand, still we would miss you.
(Sorry if I don’t make much sense: it’s late and I’m pretty tired.)
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May 31st, 2013 at 11:52 pm
First, I am so happy to get your review, Violet and Reviewbrain!!! I’ve been watching my mailbox restlessly. So thank you! And I’m tickled to see Chibi include the baby in her artwork! Fun!
Hi Rose UK! Great points! There is a small snippet of Something’s Gotten Hold of My Heart playing quietly in the LeeLee scene. It seems like a foreshadowing of a situation to come.
The way I see it, the happy memory involves a baby girl in a happy situation with her family, a poignant scene with her daddy. Later, Lisbon is comforting the baby they’ve found, putting it down, telling it everything’s okay. Very domestic scene which Jane almost pointedly refuses to look at.
I noticed that the full song, and TM almost never puts an actual song in the soundtrack, starts up and completely takes over the scene as Lisbon hands over the baby to its daddy. If you slow down the frames and watch Lisbon’s face as she gets to her car and especially as she gets in it, the sadness in her face is heartbreaking. She almost seems to be thinking where’s my family, where are my babies? I think it really hurts her. And, as you mention, the lyrics to the song are uncanny in how they fit the story.
BTW, did you see how Pete looks at Lisbon when she delivers the baby? He adores his Pepper now and I bet will do ANYTHING for her FOREVER! Very touching.
About Sean Barlow. As already mentioned, he makes a point to tout his family, the Barlows, as “real” psychics while the Janes are charlatan thieves. He later says Red John has “real” powers. He talks like he knows Red John very well. (Something that seemed to be somewhat true of Pete, oddly enough. Again, carnie connection?) This makes me wonder strongly if Red John is in fact a member of the Barlow clan. Just something I’ll be watching for.
On a different point made by others, I think Jane’s almost eerie calm in this episode comes from two things. Firstly, he is really settling into his partnership mode. He seems to have almost fully accepted it and, interestingly, it seems to be giving him a lot of peace. The more eerie calm was with Sean Barlow. I believe he purposely had his body language locked down tight so as to give Barlow as little to “read” about him as possible. He had trouble with that when Barlow insulted his family, but especially when Barlow exposed Lisbon’s feelings like that. He was nearly hugging himself into stillness. None of those sweeping gestures and showmanship we see when he believes he’s in control. Didn’t seem to feel that way with Barlow.
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May 31st, 2013 at 11:57 pm
Whew. The finale was …surprisingly calm, I think, in comparison to season 3 and 4, but then again emotions were running high here and the tension was tangible.
Some short comments on the episode itself:
“Lying in bed, thinking of Patrick. You’re a little in love with him, eh?”
At this point, I had to press “pause” and then spent no less than five minutes laughing hysterically. I’m not exaggerating! That was brilliant.
And then Sean Barlow pointed out one of the main reasons Lisbon is scared of admitting her feelings to Jane: he is secretive and controling. And the next chance he gets, Jane APOLOGIZES for exactly that. It’s like he’s trying to do away with everything standing between them while simultaneously refusing to actually let either of them openly acknowledge their feelings. That was quite interesting to see.
Also: following all that, we get to see Lisbon with a baby and Jane sitting in a comfy armchair, watching them both … My, my, my, isn’t that domestic? It felt almost like after all those glimpses into Jane’s past during the entire episode, we now got a glimpse of what his future could be like – and so did he. Just another incentive to hunt Red John down.
Now, about your review, which was brilliant as always:
You wrote: ” If we are to believe RJ is brilliant enough to stay two steps ahead of Jane, is that plausible that he’d turn out to be someone like Bob, who managed in a few episodes to attract Lisbon’s distrust and to tip his hand to Jane.”
Here is my suggestion:
While reading this question and the entire review and going over the suspect list in my mind, it occured to me that none of the characters is actually smart enough/unobtrusive enough. They are either obviously too stupid to be Red John or too obvious in their megalomaniac attitude (see Stiles acting like some all-knowing entity).
So what if Red John is being unobtrusive/outwardly stupid on purpose?
As mentioned on the show and on this blog, RJ has virtually stopped killing – unless it was to off his own people or counteract one of Jane’s moves. Is it possible that RJ has spent all this time setting everything up so it would come down to this? If he knew the list of suspects before killing Lorelei, as the video suggests and managed to arrange everything so Jane would actually receive the video, then what is to say he didn’t arrange everything else, too?
I’ve been thinking that maybe Red John WANTS Jane to close in on him, to figure out who he is. I think RJ is tired of the game and of not being able to do anything – killing is fun enough for him, but he clearly prefers playing with Jane over murdering random people. That would explain why he has virtually stopped killing until now.
Now, though, he has upped the ante. Every person he kills from now on will be another weight on Jane’s conscience, another person dead simply because Jane liked them or they were nice to him – and they only died because Jane refused to leave Red John alone and continued searching for him.
Thus, if RJ was Bret Stiles or associated with him (either is a possibility) it would make sense for him to help Jane break Lorelei out of prison so she could then “accidentally” let the info about the hand-shaking slip, which then led Jane on his quest to narrow down the names and thus allowed Red John to set the stage for his next move – the video and his changing of the rules. Also, it gives him an excuse to kill again, which he enjoys, and blame Jane for each and every kill – something he will enjoy even more.
And even if RJ had no hand in Lorelei’s escape from prison, he certainly didn’t do anything to stop her from spilling the beans to Jane. He could have killed her easily, considering what he did to Rebecca, and The Guy Who Was On Fire (forgot his name).
Well, that’s my theory, at last. Do with it what you will – maybe I’m finally paranoid enough to give Jane a run for his money 😉
Excellent episode and brilliant review, I can’t wait for the next season to start – and if they don’t do something about all the tension between Jane and Lisbon, either of them (or the shippers) will spontaneously combust.
Also: the art is superb, as usually.
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June 1st, 2013 at 12:02 am
Just a quick comment, I read the same thing – Amanda saying they would catch RJ, I mean – but I don’t think anyone mentioned anything about the Mentalist being over. In fact, Bruno said something along the lines of it would be unfair to have RJ caught/killed/whatever and then end the show and leave viewers wondering what happens next. Thank god!
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June 1st, 2013 at 12:04 am
Really? I remember reading about an interview Bruno did, saying that when they caught Red John, the show would be over, but I hope that you’re right.
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June 1st, 2013 at 12:59 am
Fantastic job, Violet!
It’s so funny, while I also felt this finale was lacking in oomph, as it were, I found your ‘pet peeve’ to be the most refreshing part of the episode:) I was delighted that Jane stayed calm and didn’t lose his head and get that crazy look in his eyes as he usually does whenever Red John pops up. Progress?! Possibly. It was also a nice change of pace not to have the show pull the ‘Will the team finally catch Red John in the finale?! Watch and find out!’ routine. At no point in the episode did it seem like Red John was within reach, which was good, because they really needed to not do that, y’know, AGAIN.
The reason this episode didn’t really work for me as a season finale, I think, was that the big moment was supposed to be the reveal of the seven suspects. Ugh, Whatever. As I said in response above to @P, I’ve pretty much lost interest in the Who? of Red John. What does still interest me is what Jane will choose to do when the time comes. Life and death situations involving Lisbon excepted, Jane still seems to be choosing Red John above all else. If he isn’t going to throw away Lisbon and his future for revenge, Jane still has quite a personal journey to go on.
Really enjoyed the introduction of the Sean Barlow character, very enjoyably evil. I hope to see him return next season. I did feel bad for poor baby Caitlin, though. Poor little thing was either going to be left with a ruthless, manipulative great uncle or a hotheated violent thug of a father and an aunt and uncle who hand wave away possible domestic violence in an alarmingly blase fashion. No wonder Jane and Angela wanted to get the hell out of that life.
This season has had its ups and downs, but, ReviewBrain and Violet, I really appreciate y’all taking the time to write these reviews for each and every episode. Even if I don’t comment on all (or most) of them, I’m always reading and enjoying.
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June 1st, 2013 at 1:26 am
↑ This.
Thank you for eloquently stating my opinion on what Lisbon was absolutely not going to say in that car far better than I ever could. Even if Lisbon was willing to admit, if only to herself, that just maybe, she might *possibly* have some squishy feelings for Jane, she would tamp down on that so hard she’d get lockjaw.
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June 1st, 2013 at 1:36 am
This entire season has been a bit “off” for me. (I loved Devil’s Cherry.) Before the season began, Bruno said we would get more of the “dark” Jane this year and I thought he meant the Jane who would bury a man alive (Red Rover, Red Rover ) and feel justified in doing it. Instead we got a Jane of extreme assholishness (thank you, Cece. It’s as good a term as Minelli’s horse’s assery.) Bruno is great at giving us a nuanced Jane, but this time he appeared to miss the mark. It was only after the final scene that I “got” it. Jane isn’t moody or brooding or mean or nasty. He is just tired. Standing at the window of his attic, he looked so defeated my heart ached for him. We first got a hint of this in Devil’s Cherry. Charlotte (Jane) says, “You have no life. Just this endless obsession. Red John, Red John, Red John.” “I’ve been dead 10 years and you still haven’t moved on.” Jane wants to stop. He just doesn’t know how.
I think he loves Lisbon. I know she loves him. But when can he feel safe enough from all the people who have used him (his father as a meal ticket, Red John for a chess mate, the CBI as the grown-up Boy Wonder who closes cases); safe enough to have a normal life?
I, too, had started to dislike him. But now, I just want to hug him and comfort him and make it all go way.
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June 1st, 2013 at 2:40 am
I also meant to say that I really hope Red John is not psychic. This gives him an unfair advantage over Jane that he will never be able to overcome. And the years that I have invested in this show were really so that I could see Jane triumph, in the end.
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June 1st, 2013 at 3:33 am
It’s late at night, so I’m going to say thank you, for now and hope Reviewbrain’s improvement. I will comment tomorow. Again, thanks. It was wonderful.
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June 1st, 2013 at 4:06 am
My theory on the scene at the end with Red John knowing who Jane suspects is as follows:
Jane was doing a long con. He knew Red John would break in (Kirkman sending his henchmen) to look at his work, so he planted stuff on his board pointing to those men that Red John listed. He wants Red John to feel like he’s won.
It would explain why Jane was pleased when he returned and saw someone had broken in.
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June 1st, 2013 at 4:29 am
All-I-need is right, Bruno Heller did say (in his most recent interview, and I am paraphrasing as best I can) that it would be strange and abrupt to have the series end right after RJ is caught–assuming he is–and that it would make more sense to have a follow-up episode along the lines of “What will they do now?” This seems to suggest that Heller is planning an epilogue of sorts.
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June 1st, 2013 at 5:03 am
I agree with you Cece! I want to see them have a fight that isn’t resolved at the end of the episode. There is so much seething beneath the surfaces of both Jane and Lisbon. I was very disappointed that there were no open revelations of love from them in the finale–I think the writers could at least have given us that, having given us almost nothing all season. But I fear that the writers (including Heller) do not consider the J/L romance arc to be important. They downplay it as much as possible when it deserves as much attention as the Red John arc.
I also agree with P about the plot holes, the transformation of Lisbon from kickass to doormat (which I resent furiously!) and Jane’s cruel and sarcastic attitude toward Lisbon in all of season 5. This was somewhat mitigated in the finale, but Jane always has an abstracted look on his face as though he doesn’t care if Lisbon is there or not, even when he is apologizing to her for being controlling and secretive. Why couldn’t they have had it out in that car scene, right then and there? She says, I can’t work like this, and he cuts her off! This could have been an amazing revelatory scene, but no, that’s not what the writers want.
Maybe this is hairsplitting, but it annoyed me that the CBI could allow Miriam to sit unwatched in the back of the police van while she predictably took a suicide pill. I could see it coming as soon as that scene began. It’s not credible to me that they would not take every precaution with a suspect who could be made to talk and give valuable information, especially since it’s known that RJ devotees will take their own lives for him or be killed by one of his agents if they don’t keep a close watch on the suspects.
Everyone keeps saying that they never saw so much trust between J and L, but it seemed to me that he only relented under extreme pressure from her. The only sign that he still feels close to her is the split second shot of his arm around her as they go into his attic to watch the DVD. It’s true that he’s conflicted–he wants to be close to her but he can’t, so he distances himself from her. The very last scene was so telling–Jane has his back to Lisbon as he gazes out the window and sighs, while Lisbon gazes at him with anguish in her eyes, wanting to embrace him, to comfort him, but not daring to approach him.
I don’t want to give the impression that I hated the finale–I thought that much of it was very well done, especially the end. Lisbon laying out the pictures of Jane’s suspects like tarot cards or better still poker (as violet noted) was an excellent dramatic touch. I don’t for one minute believe that there are any psychics on TM–RJ and Sean Barlow are both clever mentalists like Jane, though unlike him they are still pretending to be psychics in order to manipulate the gullible.
I also like Bret Partridge for Red John, and I have for a while, and I believe that he got his info about Jane’s “memories” from Sean Barlow or other unscrupulous carnies who knew Jane as a kid and also knew which people were important to him. RJ did not specifically say *which* memory he destroyed because he didn’t know which one it was. He did know that Eileen was important to Jane, though.
Sorry this has been such a long post–kudos to Violet for another insightful review, and I am impressed as always by the commentary of my fellow fans/bloggers! 🙂
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June 1st, 2013 at 5:09 am
Same here. I hope you reconsider, P. Though I totally understand why you don’t want to watch anymore. Part of me doesn’t either because I will be so angry if J and L are not together romantically at the end, but I am so hooked on the Red John suspense that I am afraid I will still have to watch. I will miss your commentary also.
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June 1st, 2013 at 5:20 am
Excellent points, Rose! I never even thought about “Miriam” or “Sean” meaning John! It occurred to me at first that maybe Sean was RJ but he’s too old. But he definitely knows RJ and I am sure he’s the source of RJ knowing about Eileen.
And yes, there are no coincidences on TM…Lorelei’s phrase coming from the lips of Sean Barlow indicates a Barlow/Lorelei connection of some kind.
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June 1st, 2013 at 8:20 am
A lovely review Violet, thank you for taking the time. I really loved this finale. I loved that it was different from past finales. I am so jaded of cliff hangers and useless ‘grab your attention’ finales that go nowhere. Bruno is my hero of finales.
I was surprised by the turn the Red John story line has taken. To have him suggest psychic powers is particularly cruel to Jane. I could feel Jane’s tension coming off him in waves by the end of the video by some brilliant understated acting by Mr. Baker. I don’t care which of the subjects is Red John I just can’t wait to see how it all plays out.
I though the choice of song was inspired
Poor Jane all that work and he just had to wait for the video.
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June 1st, 2013 at 8:47 am
@ Frogs: When Lisbon gave back the baby, I thought she looked more apprehensive/full of foreboding than anything – I interpreted her whole demeanour as having turned away from a happy moment and having now to re-enter the darkness that is the world of Jane v Red John. I would imagine that her whole conscious mind was on Jane and the CD at that point, although I see where you’re coming from re: personal regrets, especially with the momentary domestic scene.
I didn’t notice Pete’s face – oh well, any excuse for a re-watch! 😉
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June 1st, 2013 at 9:14 am
@Sid: When Kirkland orders his people to break into Jane’s attic, Lorelei is already dead. It can’t be that through Kirkland, RJ knew of Jane’s list. Either there is an explanation that we didn’t get OR they messed up the continuity of the episodes. Either way, Kirkland cannot be the one who tipped-off RJ.
Now, although I can’t explain it, I also believe that Jane is doing a heck of a long con. Which would explain why he is burning the evidence, so no one can see that he has ‘planted’ some of the subjects on purpose to discover who the real one is.
BH said that list was the real list: one of those people is RJ (or perhaps many). Hence, Jane’s father or somebody from his carny life cannot be. Also, Jane ticked off RJ with that list: in my opinion, that means that RJ is one of the subjects, otherwise why bother doing all that scene with Lorelei and what not? RJ wanted to intimidate Jane and he did pretty much what Sean Barlow tried to do to Jane and definitely did to Lisbon (I think it was Reviewbrain who highlighted this..or Violet, sorry, I can’t remember!).
Still need to re-watch that episode for more comments!
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June 1st, 2013 at 10:41 am
Reviewbrain, my previous comment is awaiting moderation or never reached you? it doesn’t say it’s been moderated…
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June 1st, 2013 at 10:48 am
Thank you for the review! I just loved this episode because it was surprisingly intense even though it didn’t have that much action in it and because it was full with information about Jane’s past and I´m dying to know more about the Jane family. I have to admit that the whole minion-killing-herself-AGAIN scene was quite silly but luckily it was a short scene.
I like to share you my theory about how RJ knew about Jane´s happy memory and the list. I agree with Violet that RJ probably found out the happy memory from Sophie Miller or from her files. I assume that one possible way to help people to overcome their mental breakdown is to take them to their happy place or memory to calm the person down.
The list, then. I guessed five out of seven right (Reed and the Sheriff were the balck horses of the race). First of all, I really liked that it was Lorelie who read RJ’s message and not RJ himself. RJ has been present, ike on-screen present in every finale but in this one he was just this background thread hanging over our lovely pair and the team. I really liked that change. Lorelie´s short comeback made me just think that what the heck was Lorelie to RJ. I mean, she was clearly important to her because Lorelie was not killed immediately when she was caught, RJ offered her quicker death that Lorelie found it to be reasonable and that because of how Jane played her (and vice versa) RJ is so pissed that he is showing off and being arrogant. My pet theory is that Lorelie was the reason why RJ wanted to retire in the first place, like maybe his biological clock was ticking and he wanted to have the two-kids-a-house-with-a-white-fence-and-a-dog- package.
I believe that RJ saw Jane´s notes before Jane even started to expect that someone would break in his attic (I got the impression from the video that RJ really wanted to show off his “I can pull even longer time ruse than you” skills). RJ also used the word clever in the video while talking about the names and as it is suggested the whole series how RJ and Jane are alike, I assume that RJ knows Jane so well that he could follow his logic and guess the names.
And finally the names or who is RJ. I actually really don´t care who is RJ but my interest has always been in how they will eventually catch him and what will happen to Jane and his revenge. I have seen it in here and in many other forums that people were disapponted with the names because some of the characters were outsmarted by Jane. I think it was Rose UK who mentioned that TM is having similar words or phrases and two words that are quite often mentioned throughout the seasons are bluff and doubleþbluff. RJ definitely knows how to keep his shit together by being the wolf in sheep’s skin, that is the reason why he hasn’t been caught.
The final things are my icings on the cake:
– Cho
– Cho reading
– Chigsby (Ok, I like Cho)
– Jane rolling his eyes
– Robin Tunney’s lovely face
– Lisbon mentioning her mom voluntarily to Jane (like come on!)
– I agree with Frogs about Pete´s face, Lisbon is now part of Carnie family
Sorry about stuff being here and there, it is quite difficult to write in a hurry using a second language.
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June 1st, 2013 at 3:13 pm
First of all, I would just like to say that I completely agree with your theory, and that Red John does have some ability to play with Jane’s emotions, but Jane can control them if he lets himself realize what Red John is doing to him. Also, with the scene with Jane, Lisbon, and baby Caitlyn just showed how much of a happy family they could have, hopefully foreshadowing Jane and Lisbon’s future together. All’s well that ends well hopefully, as the writers should play out the INTENSE chemistry between both Lisbon and Jane in order for that massive combustion to be avoided.
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June 1st, 2013 at 3:25 pm
@ All I Need & Ifrah I’m not so sure (yet) about RJ having played a long con on Jane. But I say that based purely on the letter Lorelei read out, which was spitting mad in tone, and I am fully prepared to be wrong! To me, that angry tone suggested the attack mode of a cornered wild animal…
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June 1st, 2013 at 3:29 pm
@Sid : I don’t think that Kirkland’s breaking-in (well, his men) the attic is the way RJ knew about Jane’s list of suspects. Lorelei was dead already when the break-in happened.
However, I am with you in that Jane is doing a heck of a long con: why else would he destroy the evidence of his investigation? I have the suspicion that he is destroying all the files (not just the board), everything, because that is the only way to know what Jane *really* thinks. He knows there was a break in, he knows that he’s been watched. Then…he destroys anything that will give any insight into what he *really* knows.
BH said that RJ is in that list. I am inclined to believe that some of those in the list were ‘planted’ by Jane himself, Jane knowing that they are *absolutely not* RJ. Ergo, his real list of suspects is much smaller but he is playing RJ now. And the fact that RJ ‘got’ that specific list will give Jane another piece of information and to whom RJ is (or who is helping him). Convoluted? definitely. Plausible…who knows! LOL.
Sean Barlow played Lisbon the same way RJ is now trying to play Jane (I think RB pointed this out before…or was it Violet?): by spookily giving information that only Jane could have known in principle, but after all, it is all a trickery, he is 100% convinced (and I am as well). And in my view, Jane knows way more that we were led to believe in the final episode.
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June 1st, 2013 at 3:33 pm
Well yes, with Red John, you never know. That angry tone of his could be what he’s telling us, for once, or just a manipulation for Jane.
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June 1st, 2013 at 3:37 pm
Indeed! I didn’t even consider that it might be manipulation. I tend to take most RJ actions at face value. Gosh, I’d be an excellent mark. 😉
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June 1st, 2013 at 3:39 pm
Indeed! I didn’t even consider that it might be manipulation. I tend to take most RJ actions at face value for some reason. Gosh, I’d be an excellent mark. 😉
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June 1st, 2013 at 4:11 pm
@Sid :
It isn’t possible that Kirkland’s break-in (well, his men) the attic is the way RJ knew about Jane’s list of suspects. Lorelei was dead already when the break-in happened.
Nevertheless, I am with you in that Jane is doing a heck of a long con: why else would he destroy the evidence of his investigation? I have the suspicion that he is destroying all the files (not just the board), everything, because that is the only way to know what Jane *really* thinks. He knows there was a break in, he knows that he’s been watched. Then…he destroys anything that will give any insight into what he *really* knows.
Bruno Heller said that RJ is in that list. I am inclined to believe that some of those in the list were ‘planted’ by Jane himself, Jane knowing that they are *absolutely not* RJ. Ergo, his real list of suspects is much smaller but he is playing RJ now. And the fact that RJ ‘got’ that specific list will give Jane another piece of information and to whom RJ is (or who is helping him). Convoluted? definitely. Plausible…who knows! LOL.
Sean Barlow played Lisbon the same way RJ is now trying to play Jane (I think RB pointed this out before…or was it Violet?): by spookily giving information that only Jane could have known in principle, but after all, it is all a trickery, he is 100% convinced (and I am as well). And in my view, Jane knows way more that we were led to believe in the final episode.
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June 1st, 2013 at 4:24 pm
Anyone else experiencing weirdly vanishing/non-posted posts!?
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June 1st, 2013 at 4:26 pm
Typically, that one worked.
I only wanted to say to Ifrah that I hadn’t considered a possible manipulation by RJ in the letter. I took it for real! (Gullible).
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June 1st, 2013 at 5:06 pm
@Rose UK I didn’t pick up the detailed expressions on Lisbon’s face after delivering the baby until later when I slowed everything down to look again. It happens too fast in the scene otherwise. And of course, it’s just my own interpretation, since they never TELL us anything!!! 🙂
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June 1st, 2013 at 5:24 pm
I also read about. Bruno said that.
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June 1st, 2013 at 5:30 pm
I read that Sean Barlow will be recurrent character, Cece.
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June 1st, 2013 at 5:33 pm
Rose UK, yes, I’ve tried to post at least 5 times a long comment…it doesn’t come up. If this one comes up, then it’s totally random and I don’t know what to say.
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June 1st, 2013 at 5:35 pm
This is a comment that I’ve tried to post like, 8 times…let’s see if it works…
——-
@Sid : I don’t think that Kirkland’s breaking-in (well, his men) the attic is the way RJ knew about Jane’s list of suspects. Lorelei was dead already when the break-in happened.
However, I am with you in that Jane is doing a heck of a long con: why else would he destroy the evidence of his investigation? I have the suspicion that he is destroying all the files (not just the board), everything, because that is the only way to know what Jane *really* thinks. He knows there was a break in, he knows that he’s been watched. Then…he destroys anything that will give any insight into what he *really* knows.
BH said that RJ is in that list. I am inclined to believe that some of those in the list were ‘planted’ by Jane himself, Jane knowing that they are *absolutely not* RJ. Ergo, his real list of suspects is much smaller but he is playing RJ now. And the fact that RJ ‘got’ that specific list will give Jane another piece of information and to whom RJ is (or who is helping him). Convoluted? definitely. Plausible…who knows! LOL.
Sean Barlow played Lisbon the same way RJ is now trying to play Jane (I think RB pointed this out before…or was it Violet?): by spookily giving information that only Jane could have known in principle, but after all, it is all a trickery, he is 100% convinced (and I am as well). And in my view, Jane knows way more that we were led to believe in the final episode.
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June 1st, 2013 at 5:36 pm
posting by parts…let’s see if it works
——
Sid : I don’t think that Kirkland’s breaking-in (well, his men) the attic is the way RJ knew about Jane’s list of suspects. Lorelei was dead already when the break-in happened.
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June 1st, 2013 at 5:37 pm
Sid: I am with you in that Jane is doing a heck of a long con: why else would he destroy the evidence of his investigation? I have the suspicion that he is destroying all the files (not just the board), everything, because that is the only way to know what Jane *really* thinks. He knows there was a break in, he knows that he’s been watched. Then…he destroys anything that will give any insight into what he *really* knows.
BH said that RJ is in that list. I am inclined to believe that some of those in the list were ‘planted’ by Jane himself, Jane knowing that they are *absolutely not* RJ. Ergo, his real list of suspects is much smaller but he is playing RJ now. And the fact that RJ ‘got’ that specific list will give Jane another piece of information and to whom RJ is (or who is helping him). Convoluted? definitely. Plausible…who knows! LOL.
Sean Barlow played Lisbon the same way RJ is now trying to play Jane (I think RB pointed this out before…or was it Violet?): by spookily giving information that only Jane could have known in principle, but after all, it is all a trickery, he is 100% convinced (and I am as well). And in my view, Jane knows way more that we were led to believe in the final episode.
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June 1st, 2013 at 5:37 pm
apparently it is totally random…wonder if it is copy/paste from word?
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June 1st, 2013 at 5:40 pm
Sid: I don’t think Kirkland’s break-in (his men I mean) of Jane’s attic is the way RJ knew about Jane’s list. Lorelei was already dead when the break-in happened.
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June 1st, 2013 at 5:41 pm
nop, definitely not word. Help!
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June 1st, 2013 at 5:51 pm
@ Mosquito: You could try breaking down your post into smaller parts, maybe? Although some of my responses have been short and still vanished. Hm.
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June 1st, 2013 at 6:01 pm
@ Ifrah: I never considered that the letter might be manipulation – I always take RJ actions at face value! (Gullible). 😉
@ Frogs: No, it’s hilarious. We’re all “yes but, no but, yes but…” – the writers must love that. Well, if they read sites like this, that is.
@ Carla: I’m glad to hear that Sean will be a recurring character. I thought he was cold, sharp, unfathomable, and I was quite mesmerised by the scene with him. So good.
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June 1st, 2013 at 6:02 pm
@ Ifrah: I never considered that the letter might be manipulation – I always take RJ actions at face value! (Gullible). 😉
@ Frogs: No, it’s hilarious. We’re all “yes but, no but, yes but…” – the writers must love that. Well, if they read sites like this, that is!
@ Carla: I’m glad to hear that Sean will be a recurring character. I thought he was cold, sharp, unfathomable, and I was quite mesmerised by the scene with him. So good.
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June 1st, 2013 at 6:15 pm
“then Sean Barlow pointed out one of the main reasons Lisbon is scared of admitting her feelings to Jane: he is secretive and controling. And the next chance he gets, Jane APOLOGIZES for exactly that. It’s like he’s trying to do away with everything standing between them ”
Are you reading my mind? I felt the same. He’s willing make things easier to her. I also loved your feeling about Jane, Lisbon and the baby. What a kind of romantic you are. Just like me. Hahaha!
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June 1st, 2013 at 6:29 pm
@ Carla: I’m glad to hear that Sean Barlow will be coming back. I thought he was cold, sharp and unfathomable – another memorable character, in my book.
@ Ifrah: I didn’t consider that the letter might be RJ manipulation – good point!
@ Frogs: I know, it’s so funny. The fans start arguing (nicely, of course) and the writers sit back in satisfaction. 😉
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June 1st, 2013 at 6:39 pm
Finally, but posted on a day when I was traveling! My luck.
I thought this was a very, very good episode. Very subtle. Just a couple of points, both brought up here (the car chase and the cyanide) rang a little weird. However, I think the cyanide at the end foreshadowed what was coming: the list. The chase I actually watched again looking for hidden messages. Didn’t see any 🙂
The meat:
1) What was up with the white orchid and the lute(?) on the wall at the motel room? Anyone got a take on that?
2) The yellow orchid-like flower — violet caught that one — not sure of the exact significance.
3) In the Cho callout (love Rigsby is totally a kid that can’t keep a secret) car scene with Rigsby, what book is Cho reading? Oh, is that “A Tale of Two Cities?” Hmmm.
4) In the “non reveal” car scene with Jane and Lisbon, before Lisbon speaks, she actually is moving her lips without saying anything. Is anyone a lip reader out there?
Gotta run. More later. Thanks Violet and RB!
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June 1st, 2013 at 6:50 pm
@ C Hill: Yes, I thought the book was TOTC too! I don’t know why, probably just on my mind. I also loved that little Cho-reads-on-stakeouts throwback moment. And he’s extremely insightful, is our Cho. He knew about Rigsby & VP, which makes me wonder what else he knows or could tell Jane if given half a chance.
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June 1st, 2013 at 6:51 pm
Carla, Ifrah & Frogs – I keep trying to reply to you, but it doesn’t work. Not ignoring your comments, promise! 😉
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June 1st, 2013 at 6:52 pm
@Rose: it doesn’t work…RB is it a matter of WordPress? this is absolutely infuriating!
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June 1st, 2013 at 6:53 pm
OK, here goes nothing, let’s see if I can post this one.
@Sid: Kirkland cannot be the one who tipped off RJ because when his men went to Jane’s attic, Lorelei was already dead.
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June 1st, 2013 at 6:59 pm
To Sid: sorry for coming back late but I’ve been trying to reply all day long :-S. Anyway, Kirkland was not the one who informed RJ’s about Jane’s list, as when his men break into Jane’s attic, Lorelei is already dead, which means, RJ discovered it before the video was made.
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June 1st, 2013 at 7:05 pm
Very good, Auli. “Lorelei’s short comeback made me just think that what the heck was Lorelie to RJ. I mean, she was clearly important to her because Lorelie was not killed immediately when she was caught”
I think that he did trust her, or he was using her to play game with Jane. That’s why, maybe, he didn’t kill her immediately.
“RJ knows Jane so well that he could follow his logic and guess the names.” I think you are right.
“People were disappointed with the names because some of the characters were outsmarted by Jane.”
BH said once upon that people will be disappointed when RJ is revealed. So…
I also like Cho. He’s so smart. It seems like don’t, but he sees things taking place.
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June 1st, 2013 at 7:07 pm
Thank you so mucvh for the review Violet and Reviewbrain, it was well worth waiting for.
I always love to read your thoughts and then go back and re watch.
I really enjoyed this episode, I agree that there were some plot holes, but they didn’t spoil my enjoyment….as has already been mentioned, the suicide of the minion in the police car irritated me, but not enough to spoil it.
I have nothing much to add, but would like to praise Simon Baker’s acting at the end…..as Lorelei was reading RJ’s letter…the part about Jane feeling very clever at narrowing down the list of people with whom he has shaken hands…..that it was quite a feat of memory, and that he should be proud of himself……The expressions on Simon Baker’s face portraying all of these emotions, and the utter defeat right at the end, when he could see the same old road stretching out into the distance of his future….. He looked like he had realised that he had expended so much energy over the last five years just to find that he hadn’t moved an inch!!….the man doesn’t need a script….he could tell the whole story just by standing there!!!
Love the art work Chibi….perfect….I love seeing Lisbon with babies….
Once again thank your for all the effort you both put in to this and all the reviews for the whole season…you never disappoint, and always give a very interesting slant on each episode pointing things out that, once I have read them…..are glaringly obvious……and which I have sadly missed in the umpteen times I watched.
Looking forward to next season very much…I think that the writers have loads of materialto work with, and don’t think that they will disappoint us.
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June 1st, 2013 at 7:27 pm
I think Jane wasn’t concerned about Miriam or other any minion any more, since Lorelai and Lennon’s fiasco. He had his list and, from Miriam he gets satisfied with the video. He looked really tired. He is sick of his people. You can realize that doesn’t insist with her.
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June 1st, 2013 at 7:28 pm
I might be mistaken, Mosquitoinuk and Rose, but I think there might a problem with WordPress: I don’t even see the reply button at the end of your posts… Plus, it was the same thing that happened with my old account: I had to use my WordPress account ever since because my posts with the other one are no longer accepted… Err, maybe someone can come up with a better and less drastic solution than to change account…?
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June 1st, 2013 at 7:30 pm
I can reply with in the link in my e-mail. I can’t do it by the blog.
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June 1st, 2013 at 7:40 pm
Ok, thanks Carla: it’s WordPress, then, definitely… Argh… 😦
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June 1st, 2013 at 7:56 pm
Thank you so much for another awesome review. These finer details excape my notice, and it’s so intriguing to see them pointed out.
First, the “RJ is many” theory. Would put Jane into some awkward postion, IMHO. Kill them all, or just the one responsible for the death of his family? How can he know? Perhaps that’s the plot for s7?
Second, the Jisbon relationship. Jane still ignores everything pointing towards their mutual feelings. Lisbon carries her heart on her sleeve, and he said in the s4 finale, that maybe after RJs death, he’ll move on.
Well, there are other points, but that were my main ones.
Again, thank you for dissecting in fine detail this episode!
Cheers, Simone
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June 1st, 2013 at 9:44 pm
Hi, All! Love you Violet & Reviewbrain!
Just began to read (always late 🙂 ) ,but think that the reply button problem and no nesting is most probably related to RB mistakenly (or not!) removed the tick for “Enable threaded (nested) comments” check box in administration part of her blog located at settings>discussion. 😉 Till later!
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June 1st, 2013 at 10:31 pm
Love all your comments! At this rate, we will still be discussing the finale when the new season starts! 🙂
I also noted the scene with Lisbon and the baby–Jane is looking away and in the background, but there is no mistaking the meaning of “potential happy family.” I wasn’t quick enough to catch her expression. (This happens all the time in TM–you have to look lightning fast or freeze-frame it or you lose it.) I was just watching a rerun yesterday of the episode in which there is a little girl whom Lisbon is trying to get out of a room with a bomb in it (btw Lisbon is incredibly heroic and disarms the bomb seconds before it would have exploded–I love this woman!!!) In an earlier scene we see Jane talking to the little girl and conspiratorially telling her he’s trying to fool Lisbon by saying that he sees a unicorn outside. Lisbon asks her a question calling her “sweetie.” Both J and L love children and it is a theme that is repeated many times. I love the way they are with kids and animals.
I don’t know who has the upper hand, Jane or Red John–it’s hard to tell, though judging by Jane’s expressions in the final scene, it may be RJ. If Jane is operating a long con, he doesn’t give any evidence of it. And he does seem to be weary of the whole thing and almost ready to give up! He won’t, of course. I am also less interested in the identity of RJ than I am in what happens to Jane once he has had his revenge. (A strange plot twist would be if someone else killed RJ, thereby depriving him of his revenge!) How will he occupy his days? What will he do with his life? And will his life (hopefully) include Lisbon?
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June 1st, 2013 at 10:50 pm
oops…my entire comment seems to have disappeared and there is no “Reply” button on any of the posts. HELP!!!!!
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June 2nd, 2013 at 5:07 am
OK, I am going to try to post again!
At this rate, we will still be commenting on the finale when the new season starts! 🙂
A couple of thoughts:
1) The one thing that bothers me about the list is that except for Bret Stiles, not one of them has the necessary charisma to inspire the kind of insane loyalty that RJ’s followers have. And Stiles is a cult leader, so it would make sense for him to be RJ, but he is older than RJ is supposed to be. Brett Partridge fits the profile the best and has even been at all of RJ’s crime scenes (I think) but unless he has a whole other persona that we haven’t seen, he could never get anyone to commit suicide for him.
2) Re Jane, Lisbon, and baby scene: I have unfortunately read some fanfiction (authors shall remain nameless) in which J and L have a baby together, and the writing is…well, you can imagine. I’m not saying it couldn’t be done well by a good author, but… It’s interesting that the writers are sending us a message that they could be a family with a child. Both are wonderful with children and obviously love them–Jane plays games with them and treats them with great respect and seriousness, Lisbon treats them with love and compassion–she tells a young boy not to become like his alcoholic father and that she has been where he is and understands; she calls a little girl “sweetie;” she bends the law at Jane’s urging in two cases involving children. It’s a recurring theme throughout the series. We have seen both J and L holding babies as though they enjoyed it, or at least looking comfortable with it. I’m hoping that this is some kind of foreshadowing, because they could both be so happy as parents together.
3) I’m still not sure how to explain RJ’s list being the same as Jane’s. I’m not even sure if Jane’s list (which presumably RJ stole or deduced from Jane) is the real list. Jane would never have left the real timeline/list unguarded in his attic for anyone to see/steal. If he has a list, it’s in his head. But why pretend to Lisbon that the 7 photos she lays out are his actual suspects? Tomorrow (Sunday June 2) there will be a rerun of “Red Sails” in which some people have said that there are clues so watch closely! It’s possible that we could piece together what actually happened with the clues/info we have so far, but it’s possible that we need missing info that will be revealed next season.
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June 2nd, 2013 at 7:36 am
P’s comments above are closest to my view of this episode. The writers have painted themselves into a corner. Having been woefully disappointed by the last season of Lost and the idiotic finale of what had started out as a great show, I actually think, at this point, a Smoke Monster would be a better RJ than the seven possibilites presented to us.
Also, the idea that RJ somehow reasoned out the seven suspects months earlier that it took Jane the final whole week to hammer out after nine years of investigating is plainly absurd. The implications that RJ is some sort of a real psychic is a pathetic way for the writers to tie this together.
It seems to be the trend in TV shows over the past decade or two. Throw a lot of interesting, seemingly impossible events together to grow an audience, whether it’s X-Files, Lost, Fringe, Mentalist or whatever and then have a gruesomely bad ending because there never was an underlying answer that the writers had. They just made it up as they went along.
With the Mentalist, I have enjoyed the ride up until this point, but I now know the ride will culminate in driving over a cliff into an empty ravine.
I still think that they should just introduce Christopher Walken in next season’s finale as RJ and let him chew up the scenery. I’m sure that would be more entertaining and make more sense (and it doesn’t make any sense) than what we’re going to end up getting
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June 2nd, 2013 at 9:25 am
Hi Violet,
thanks, I’ll see if I can post at least this one…I can’t see the reply button to any post actually. Otherwise, I’ll come back with a new name :-S
This is something I wrote yesterday morning. Let’s see how it goes. Oh, and I think that the answer to Lily is Sophie Miller.
Here goes nothing…
—–
@Sid : I don’t think that Kirkland’s breaking-in (well, his men) the attic is the way RJ knew about Jane’s list of suspects. Lorelei was dead already when the break-in happened.
However, I am with you in that Jane is doing a heck of a long con: why else would he destroy the evidence of his investigation? I have the suspicion that he is destroying all the files (not just the board), everything, because that is the only way to know what Jane *really* thinks. He knows there was a break in, he knows that he’s been watched. Then…he destroys anything that will give any insight into what he *really* knows.
BH said that RJ is in that list. I am inclined to believe that some of those in the list were ‘planted’ by Jane himself, Jane knowing that they are *absolutely not* RJ. Ergo, his real list of suspects is much smaller but he is playing RJ now. And the fact that RJ ‘got’ that specific list will give Jane another piece of information and to whom RJ is (or who is helping him). Convoluted? definitely. Plausible…who knows! LOL.
Sean Barlow played Lisbon the same way RJ is now trying to play Jane (I think RB pointed this out before…or was it Violet?): by spookily giving information that only Jane could have known in principle, but after all, it is all a trickery, he is 100% convinced (and I am as well). And in my view, Jane knows way more that we were led to believe in the final episode.
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June 2nd, 2013 at 12:20 pm
I’m so happy that People have the same good feelings about this season finale that me! About the list, BH said in interview that that is the real list, that RJ is one of the names of that list.
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June 2nd, 2013 at 2:28 pm
i think there is too much focus on the “RJ as psychic” comment — it’s clearly not true and thrown out to confuse.
as to the idea that none of the suspects but stiles has demonstrated the kind of charisma needed to be RJ — well, if that was required of all suspects that would kind of make it a little easy, wouldn’t it?
but there is the inherent problem with american TV — the way that the shows are produced and renewed by the networks make pulling off a cohesive 5+ season show difficult. unless it’s a major character, there no way to guarantee bringing back an actor over multiple seasons.
that being said, i think the idea of RJ being more than one is very likely — this theme has been consistent over the course of the series.
also, one item i forgot in my rush yesterday and tied to listing mcallister as a suspect — did it seem to anyone else that there were lot of crooked sheriffs in season 5? just a thought.
i also agree that jane messed with his RJ board before HS broke in for kirkland. i suspect this will end up just messing up Kirkland’s list than it being used to deduce Jane’s 7.
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June 2nd, 2013 at 5:13 pm
I don’t think that Kirkland’s breaking-in (well, his men) the attic is the way RJ knew about Jane’s list of suspects. Lorelei was dead already when the break-in happened.
However, Sid mentioned that Jane might be doing a long con. I am with you in that Jane is doing a heck of a long con: why else would he destroy the evidence of his investigation? I have the suspicion that he is destroying all the files (not just the board), everything, because that is the only way to know what Jane *really* thinks. He knows there was a break in, he knows that he’s been watched. Then…he destroys anything that will give any insight into what he *really* knows.
BH said that RJ is in that list. I am inclined to believe that some of those in the list were ‘planted’ by Jane himself, Jane knowing that they are *absolutely not* RJ. Ergo, his real list of suspects is much smaller but he is playing RJ now. And the fact that RJ ‘got’ that specific list will give Jane another piece of information and to whom RJ is (or who is helping him). Convoluted? definitely. Plausible…who knows! LOL.
Sean Barlow played Lisbon the same way RJ is now trying to play Jane (I think RB pointed this out before…or was it Violet?): by spookily giving information that only Jane could have known in principle, but after all, it is all a trickery, he is 100% convinced (and I am as well). And in my view, Jane knows way more that we were led to believe in the final episode.
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June 2nd, 2013 at 5:20 pm
I’m with you on the idea of RJ being many: it makes total sense to me. Also, I think Jane is doing a long con: why else would he destroy all the evidence of his investigation? because I have a suspicion that he “planted” some of the suspect on that list; i.e, his real list is much shorter and he’ll be testing the real suspects really soon.
Kirkland couldn’t have been the one who tipped off RJ: Lorelei was dead already when his men went into Jane’s attic. The “psychic” angle is just to freak Jane out but I think RJ is freaking out himself …
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June 2nd, 2013 at 5:21 pm
I made it!, let’s see if I can post my original post then:
——-
I don’t think that Kirkland’s breaking-in (well, his men) the attic is the way RJ knew about Jane’s list of suspects. Lorelei was dead already when the break-in happened.
However, Sid mentioned that Jane might be doing a long con. I am with you in that Jane is doing a heck of a long con: why else would he destroy the evidence of his investigation? I have the suspicion that he is destroying all the files (not just the board), everything, because that is the only way to know what Jane *really* thinks. He knows there was a break in, he knows that he’s been watched. Then…he destroys anything that will give any insight into what he *really* knows.
BH said that RJ is in that list. I am inclined to believe that some of those in the list were ‘planted’ by Jane himself, Jane knowing that they are *absolutely not* RJ. Ergo, his real list of suspects is much smaller but he is playing RJ now. And the fact that RJ ‘got’ that specific list will give Jane another piece of information and to whom RJ is (or who is helping him). Convoluted? definitely. Plausible…who knows! LOL.
Sean Barlow played Lisbon the same way RJ is now trying to play Jane (I think RB pointed this out before…or was it Violet?): by spookily giving information that only Jane could have known in principle, but after all, it is all a trickery, he is 100% convinced (and I am as well). And in my view, Jane knows way more that we were led to believe in the final episode.
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June 2nd, 2013 at 6:04 pm
Some of the suspects are obvious? Sure they are. In many episodes, the new characters whom were given far too much attention were the culprits in the end (His right red hand, strawberries and cream). Sometimes, not immediately, but the viewer could get used to the face, only to be presented with the “disappointment” of revealing his/her true identity.
That being said, Partridge is far too creepy to be RJ (where is the charisma?), and Stiles is the obvious choice. Perhaps too obvious, agreed, but I still have an interest in identifying the real one.
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June 2nd, 2013 at 6:05 pm
P, unfortunately, I have to second your emotion. If Heller is playing it straight, and that list is for real, then there is no excuse for it. The Red John stuff has been all over the road from the beginning of Season 4. It wasn’t a model of clarity before then, but nothing made sense after they scrapped the Bradford Whitley ending. I haven’t yet really understood all the Darcy stuff from last year and why Jane had to hide the fact that RJ wasnt dead, and why he had to make that suicide guy the killer of Panzer. That made absolutely zero sense to me. The Long Con storyline was pointless. Now this.
All I can figure is that the list is not the real deal — it’s a fake out. Jane left a trick board for Bob Kirkland to find, and fed fake names to RJ. Heller said that RJ was on the list, but I refuse to believe it. It is just too lame. Brett Partridge as RJ is just too profoundly dull-witted to be believed. And he is the only one who makes any basic sense given the three big clues, so it’s either him, or we are in for a cartoony ret-con to end all cartoony ret-cons. If it turns out to be Reede or McAllister, I’m going to get my head checked for ever having stayed with this show for this long. I’ll tune in at the end to find out who it was, but I’m with P, I can’t follow a show that doesn’t respect its viewership more than this.
Here is my question to you guys: what is up with RJ’s season-ending threat? RJ is going to kill kill kill until Jane finds him . . . or he finds JANE?? What does that even mean? Jane is right there in the attic or downstairs on the sofa. He’s been there for years now. So when Lorelie intoned this portentous threat, all Profound Deluxe, I had to laugh incredulously. Is Jane supposed to hide now? If he stands in place and yells, “RJ come get me!” does that end the game and the show? Why not just arm yourself with everything in the world and just yell for him to bring it? That’s the only way that the threat makes sense. Did I misunderstand it somehow?
If I didnt misunderstand it, then that threat was a symbolic perfect ending to a season that started out so very sharply and strongly with episodes like Devil’s Cherry — one of the best episodes of the entire show, ever– and quickly degenerated into nonsense. I genuinely believe that Heller has checked out of this show– he’s sold it to syndication and made his money. He doesn’t get paid extra for writing it well or even sensibly at this point. He’s busy with his other shows now, there is new money to be made there. His disinterest feeds mine.
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June 2nd, 2013 at 6:22 pm
I don’t think I’ll mind who RJ is (even if it’s a shocking retcon/groan-worthy reveal) – it’s the chase I find interesting. How a character or person reacts to a problem; how that problem defines them (or how they *let* themselves be defined). How it affects them. How their choices have consequences. How we are the sum of the people around us. TM is a classic redemption story, and I’m a sucker for those.
@ Ortforshort: Sounds like we watch the same programmes!!
@ Carla: I’m glad Sean is coming back – I thought he was another memorable character. Cold, sharp, seemingly ruthless.
@ Ifrah: Good point – I didn’t consider it could be manipulation; I always take Red John actions at face value!
@ Frogs: Yes, it’s hilarious. We’re all sitting here arguing every which way (nicely, of course 😉 ) and the writers just sit back in satisfaction!
(Come on, WordPress, please post!)
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June 2nd, 2013 at 6:28 pm
My dear friends I’m sorry the comments have been awaiting moderation; I’ve been getting more spam than usual so please give your comments a day max to show up; I usually moderate comments twice a day so if I miss you the first time I won’t the second 🙂
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June 2nd, 2013 at 6:29 pm
Oh my goodness, all my posts have appeared! I’m so embarrassed. Any way of deleting them?!
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June 2nd, 2013 at 6:52 pm
Thanks again for an insightful review and all of these interesting comment! Even if I rarely find I have anything interesting to add- I’ve read all reviews for this season. So thanks again! I’ll add with one ‘look-at-the-face-scene’ I think hasn’t been mentioned. I loved the car scene were Jane againg tells Lisbon that she is bad at lying – just before they drive of he gives her almost a sad look as he’s scared for her safety, or/if you are into ‘Jisbon’ it’s almost as he thinks ‘and that’s what I love about you’
Well I thought the seasons ending was okay-another big action finale would be too predictable even if some elements like the suspect killing herself was boring. I want to see something new next season…new mentalist trics and new ways to find the guilty ones. That’s the main reason I love the show. And I wouldnt mind Lisbon getting a steady (ordinary 🙂 boyfriend to lessen the Jisbon-tension….have a great summer! greatings from Sweden!
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June 2nd, 2013 at 7:01 pm
“I have the suspicion that he is destroying all the files (not just the board), everything, because that is the only way to know what Jane *really* thinks. He knows there was a break in, he knows that he’s been watched. Then…he destroys anything that will give any insight into what he *really* knows.
BH said that RJ is in that list. I am inclined to believe that some of those in the list were ‘planted’ by Jane himself, Jane knowing that they are *absolutely not* RJ. Ergo, his real list of suspects is much smaller but he is playing RJ now. And the fact that RJ ‘got’ that specific list will give Jane another piece of information and to whom RJ is (or who is helping him)”
Perfect, mosquitoinuk. At last a comment about that RJ’s suspects list stuff make sense to me. It’s very plausible.
Like some commenters, I did think Timoty Carter a perfect RJ. Even more when we found out about him in 4×01: the good father, husband, the priest’s friend…I was sure RJ was this kind of person, who everyone likes. Now with that list I can’t suit anyone, maybe Haffner, he looked a good guy, I don’t know. Timothy Carter was perfect.
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June 2nd, 2013 at 7:09 pm
Even he a bad man I liked him as well. Let’s see what he will make ready this time.
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June 2nd, 2013 at 7:43 pm
Don’t worry, Rose. We just got your point even better… 🙂
Thanks for all your comments, guys: since I can’t reply to each of your posts individually, you’ll get a collective hug! I’m glad you liked the review! 🙂
@ Jwporetenus wrote: “Here is my question to you guys: what is up with RJ’s season-ending threat? RJ is going to kill kill kill until Jane finds him . . . or he finds JANE?? What does that even mean? Jane is right there in the attic or downstairs on the sofa. He’s been there for years now.”
Yes, RJ’s rhetoric was a bit odd. I think he meant that he will try to break him: if he wanted him dead, he could have killed him a long time ago. Actually, he could have murdered him instead of his family. The only time he tried to get him was in ‘Red John’s Footsteps’ and even then, Hardy didn’t give details about what his master wanted to do to Jane after luring him in the cellar, only that they would have fun with him (or something along those lines, it’s been a long time)… I guess RJ used the same trick with Todd Johnson in ‘Red Moon’ but his goal wasn’t that clear either then. What is obvious, still, is that he enjoys playing with him, and he might be planning to do what he failed to do with the murder of his family: to break his spirit, to crush him. And afterwards, to get rid of him eventually.
After all, RJ has been playing a weird game of alternatively pushing Jane out of his way and pulling him in. Indeed, he changed his plans in ‘Strawberry And Cream’ as he decided to get rid of his adversary while enjoying his retirement (since Jane’s defense was to convince everyone that Carter was RJ, he could have just killed again during the trial, just to prove that Jane had no reason to kill the man if his main objective had been to let him rot in jail). Then, new change of plans: he was titillated when Jane reached out for him (Panzer) and RJ decided he would make a great best pal… And now, the rules have changed one last time: the killer goes back to his old plan with a vengeance… I think he’ll be trying to get to Jane by tainting every little thing that he might cling to, every ray of hope, then, after “finding” his breaking point, he plans to finish him off as a punishment. Like he does with his victims: he tortures them, cuts them open, then kills them eventually, only this time he would torture him emotionally.
@ Mosquitoinuk wrote: “I have the suspicion that he is destroying all the files (not just the board), everything, because that is the only way to know what Jane *really* thinks. He knows there was a break in, he knows that he’s been watched. Then…he destroys anything that will give any insight into what he *really* knows.”
Maybe, it’s hard to know with Jane. It’s the same thing every time with the man, we’re always wondering if he’s planning a long con, may it be with the Vegas escapade (he was) or with Lorelei’s disappearance (he wasn’t)… His smile when he realized his attic was broke into was very intriguing and he didn’t do anything in response to the intrusion afterwards, that much is true. Plus, I’ve always been convinced that his most precious thoughts on the case were written in his notebook. But does that mean that the list Kirkland got was the same than RJ revealed? What if Jane seemed so tired and defeated because precisely the list he provided Kirkland with was a lure, but the list read by Lorelei was the true one? That would have been pretty unsettling…
And it’s dawning on me that Kirkland may have actually stolen Jane’s list (genuine or not) because he wanted to check if he was on it. After all, he asked Lennon if he knew him… Did he want to check if he was personally mentioned too? Still, I have no idea where that theory would lead…
@ Auli wrote: “First of all, I really liked that it was Lorelie who read RJ’s message and not RJ himself. RJ has been present, ike on-screen present in every finale but in this one he was just this background thread hanging over our lovely pair and the team. I really liked that change. Lorelie´s short comeback made me just think that what the heck was Lorelie to RJ. I mean, she was clearly important to her because Lorelie was not killed immediately when she was caught, RJ offered her quicker death that Lorelie found it to be reasonable and that because of how Jane played her (and vice versa) RJ is so pissed that he is showing off and being arrogant. My pet theory is that Lorelie was the reason why RJ wanted to retire in the first place, like maybe his biological clock was ticking and he wanted to have the two-kids-a-house-with-a-white-fence-and-a-dog- package”
I liked that it was Lorelei too: it was even spookier to see the dead woman than it would have been to have a voice on the phone or a masked man. And those tricks were already used…
I must say I *love* your interpretation of Lorelei’s role in RJ’s life. It makes sense and explains his anger at Jane whose intervention forced him to kill her. And it makes his willingness to share her favors with him even creepier…
Argh, so many comments, so little time… 😉
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June 2nd, 2013 at 8:16 pm
@ Violet: Heh. Don’t worry – we’ve got all summer… I’m also very much looking forward to your review of Mentalist themes (whenever you’re ready). That’s one of my favourite bits. 😉
@ ReviewBrain: Is it possible to put in a little request for something?
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June 2nd, 2013 at 8:19 pm
re: mosquito
Like we’re saying, I think it has to be some kind of long con by Jane.
I wanted to try to explain why Jane seemed pleased after he returned and saw that someone had broken in. He obviously intended for it to happen. The question is, how does it help him? I thought he was trying to mislead RJ by being very secretive about the attic, pretending he has very valuable information in there or something, and getting called away (which he knew he would be eventually), he figured they’d jump on the chance.
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June 2nd, 2013 at 8:22 pm
Eli wrote: “I just felt kind of weird about it: on the crime scene, Partridge affirms that he ahs been the Crime scene investigator on all red john murders, right from the start. Now, I find it hard to believe, as it was said that Red John crossed over the Nevada border in at least one occasion, and the case was given to the CBI only few years after the killer started actually murdering. I wonder if it is a mistake, which is kind of weird, given the great staff of writers of the show, or if Patridge was just trying ti impress his fellow co-worker by telling him a lie.”
Good point! He may have been trying to impress the newby by posing as an expert on the case indeed. That or the CBI gave him the stuff the other techs found on those crime scenes and he worked on it too (a little like when the team is called because it’s their case even though they are no longer in California).
And now I realize why Jane might have such a strong dislike for the man: it’s plausible that Jane had overheard Patridge making one of his creepy remarks when/if he investigated the Malibu crime scene involving his family…
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June 2nd, 2013 at 8:43 pm
ReviewBrain, there are like, 8 posts of mine saying the same thing, if you want to delete them…please…I’m really sorry, I thought it was wordpress…(hangs head in shame).
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June 2nd, 2013 at 9:33 pm
My feelings about the finale have been ambivalent. When I first saw it, I also felt a bit let down for lack of overt drama or high tension. The previous three seasons’ finales had been so intensely dramatic that I had anticipated this year’s would have to top them. There were scenes from Season 4’s finale that really stood out (Jane “shooting” Lisbon, Lorelei almost cutting off his wedding ring finger, J and L holding hands, the final scene); but none from this episode that really stood out enough to me.
But as the episode has sort of fermented in my mind, it’s become more and more intriguing to me, especially because of its contrast with the previous two year’s finales. I agree with the comment from someone above (sorry, i cannot find it right now to attribute) that maybe this episode had to be more low-action, because, after all, been there – done that the last three years. If you have to keep topping the previous years you will eventually get into the territory of implausibility. (In deed, to me, the character of Red John is verging on the unbelievable, if not already there. I think that is a big flaw in the series, but maybe next season will be able to rectify that.)
I am truly hoping that Bruno Heller is the magician with the card up his sleeve, waiting to pull the rabbit out of the hat next season, and then surprising us that there is actually much more in the hat than we ever expected. (sorry for the mixed metaphor)
I agree with Rita that the final scene of Jane’s wordlessly eloquent expression of defeat at the realization that his years of searching have been in vain was brilliantly portrayed by SB. And I agree with Valentina that the darkness in Jane is that he’s tired and worn out, discouraged and demoralized by grinding defeat.
I, too, suspect a Sophie Miller connection with Jane’s happy memory. It is definitely something that would come out in therapy and would be recorded in her notes. Since Kirkland knew that Patrick had been in a mental hospital, and because of his other actions of stealing Patrick’s notes and killing the social worker, he’s my main suspect for RJ. He may not come across has having a lot of charisma, but he’s got the power. Patrick mused in one episode about why Homeland Security would have an interest in a serial killer, too. I saw that as a clue.
Your review opened my eyes to many points I had missed: the “full circle” aspects that connect this episode with last season’s finale, the Greek tragedy parallel, the flowers (darn if I don’t always miss them).
Finally, when Patrick found out that Child Protective Services was the number on the wall, he said, “I spent some time there as a child.” (Not sure that’s his exact words.) I immediately thought he meant in the agency, not the town. Did anyone make that assumption?
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June 2nd, 2013 at 10:31 pm
Thank you Violet for such a well-written review!
Just skimming through the comments, I think someone said that Kirkland couldn’t have tipped off Red John because Lorelei was already dead when the break in occurred. While its true that she was already dead, its still possible Kirkland already had his own list and just wanted to see Jane’s progress in narrowing down the list, so he could know when the list would be narrowed down to 7 suspects by Jane.
My other theory about how RJ knew when Jane was going to narrow down the list to 7 is that there is either a mole or hidden camera inside the CBI. If my timeline is correct, Lisbon finds Jane burning his files in the morning. He tells her he is very close, then drops dead catching up on beauty sleep. That night, Eileen is killed, then the investigation leads them to the CD in which it is revealed RJ knew exactly when Jane would narrow down the list to 7 suspects (7 suspects —>kills Eileen —>investigation leads to CD with 7 names)
So how would RJ now how close he is? I personally think it is impossible for RJ to guess how fast Jane’s mind works. He had to have had solid evidence to know that the list was 7 names. Even Kirkland stealing the information couldn’t have told him when exactly the list would come down to 7. So, that just leaves hidden cameras or a mole working close to Lisbon or the team (they were the only ones that heard him say ‘very close’ etc.
So many questions and possible plot holes! While I still have hope that the writers will be able to clear some up, something tells me we will never know some mysteries, like how Stiles knew where Kristina was, and why Kirkland killed Lennon.
Once again, thank you Violet for the review, and also thank you Reviewbrain for providing us with this blog, its great to have such a community where we can share our thoughts and read other people’s, without feeling ashamed or anything!
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June 3rd, 2013 at 12:37 am
Yes, Lou Ann, I went back and watched the bit with the phone number about Cps a few times because of discussion on another board. When Patrick says he spent some time there, it is after CPS is mentioned and not in the general discussion about the town. So I think he was in CPS for awhile, and I believe he said it was a bad place. Anyway, that’s how I remember it.
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June 3rd, 2013 at 3:34 am
“I, too, suspect a Sophie Miller connection with Jane’s happy memory. It is definitely something that would come out in therapy and would be recorded in her notes.”
I think this is the most likely solution to this problem. This could prove an interesting arc if heller & co care to explore it.
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June 3rd, 2013 at 6:01 am
[There are no reply buttons on my wordpress page, so…)
@ ortforshort: “I still think that they should just introduce Christopher Walken in next season’s finale as RJ and let him chew up the scenery.” Good one! I love Walken. 🙂 And I enjoyed reading your comments–you have a witty style that’s fun to read! I never saw Lost or some of the other shows you mentioned, but I share some of your frustrations with the inconsistencies, plot holes, and arbitrary plot lines in The Mentalist. Heller himself said that viewers will be “disappointed” when RJ’s identity is revealed. Is that any way to end a series? I do admit, though, that I am curious to see what happens to Jane after RJ is revealed/killed/captured or whatever happens. Who will he be without his quest for revenge? That keeps me interested in the series, plus the great acting and the secret undeclared love between J and L. But I fully expect the writers to disappoint us. 😦
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June 3rd, 2013 at 6:53 am
Carla: “Timothy Carter was perfect.” I am in total agreement! As a matter of fact, I bet Heller meant for him to be Red John when he didn’t know if the series was going to be renewed for another season, and then changed it to prolong the suspense in the next season.
I watched “Red Sails” tonight looking for missed clues, and I only noted one thing that I hadn’t realized before: that Lorelei did not know where Red John was when Jane helped her escape from prison. Otherwise, why would she go on a vendetta to find him in season 5? She said, I’ll never tell you where he is” because she didn’t know herself!
A few people have expressed dissatisfaction with the writers for making it appear that RJ really IS psychic. This is not happening *at all*. It could not be clearer that Red John is a mentalist pretending to be a psychic (as is Sean Barlow) just as Jane used to do. The difference is, Jane has stopped pretending to be a psychic and RJ and SB have not–they still use the con to fool gullible people.
I have been reading some great commentary from all of you about the finale. I am ambivalent about it, as many of you are. I cannot believe that Red John is really on *that* list. I have always thought that Jane made up a fake list with some incorrect names just to mislead RJ. And somehow that fake list ended up in RJ’s hands. Heller says to trust the list, but he’s fooled us before. I take everything Heller says with a grain of salt–he goes out of his way to express himself mysteriously, inscrutably, even in a misleading way. I also firmly believe (as firmly as I can believe anything on this show) that it was Sean Barlow who supplied RJ with the info about the importance of Eileen (Li-li) to Jane–he knew Jane as a child and might even have been there in the memory scene that we see. Red John doesn’t know any *exact* memories that Jane has, of course: he doesn’t have to. He only needs to know that certain people were important to Jane to say he was “killing a memory he never told anyone.” Everyone has memories they never told anyone. While I grant that it’s possible that Sophie Miller provided the info (I doubt that she would do so willingly but maybe she was hypnotized or her files were stolen) RJ did not have to go to such lengths to get the info he needed.
The “lack of charisma” issue: It occurred to me tonight as I watched “Red Sails” the degree to which RJ f—ed with Lorelei’s head. He obviously hypnotized her to worship him, and yet she still retains just a little of her former personhood. She wants to trust Jane but her programming won’t let her. And we’ve seen what RJ did to Kristina. So my point is: charisma isn’t necessary if you can hypnotize/mind control a person into carrying out your commands, defending you to death if necessary, and believing in your absurd credo that elaborately staged stabbing murders are a work of art, that killing is a “gift,” etc.
The comment “until you find me…or I find you” seems to indicate that RJ is coming after Jane. Does he want to end the game by killing Jane, when it’s been so much fun for him? But now he’s angry that Jane changed the rules, so maybe he’s going for checkmate. Either way, it seems to forebode a fight to the death, which would be exciting to watch! Though Jane isn’t much of a street fighter–he uses his wits to defeat opponents. (Why couldn’t Jane and RJ just have a nice game of chess and call it a day?:)) But to extend the chess metaphor: I used to be sure that RJ would go after Jane’s queen (Lisbon) and capture her. Now I am not so sure. One thing for sure: RJ is, as RoseUK put it, “spitting mad,” like a cobra. He is also scared because he can’t be sure that Jane’s list is the real list and he is afraid of being found and exposed. I thought the last scene was brilliant.
What if someone else kills RJ before Jane gets to him? Or if he just drops dead from a heart attack? 🙂
It’s 3 am and I am getting silly. Keep the commentary coming, folks! Only 3 months left…excruciating!
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June 3rd, 2013 at 7:15 am
Worth the wait, Violet and Reviewbrain. 🙂
The show has proven itself good yet bad in continuity. A good continuity, for eg; Van Pelt’s madder skills at tech surveillance, and the bad, you guessed it, Red John.
Van Pelt could track Miriam phone just from Jane dialling CBI. This might just be the clue how RJ knows secret stuff. Imagine, he could slowly connect the dots to narrow down the suspects this way or maybe even fish for Jane’s happy memory. For this, it seems Haffner fits the bill for RJ.
(I think this surveillance issue was discussed by commenters some postings back. oldman? estatica? CHill? But it’s the first time I’ve seen it being carried out on the show.)
I don’t know if writers intended Miriam to be a careless abductor, but if you’re planning to abduct a baby and not get caught, you would be using a disposable phone instead. Not your personal phone, because you never know when it gets intentionally dunked in the fish tank.
At first I did groan at the cyanide-Miriam scene, but who knows the police are in it to make sure she commits suicide and slips her the pills. It is consistent with the previous ways RJ minion gets killed off within law enforces watch. Also echoes one other commenter above about increasing amount of bad cops in season 5.
Well done Violet and Reviewbrain 😀
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June 3rd, 2013 at 9:43 am
I agree with you regarding the ‘lack of charisma issue’…..I remember the episode with the charcter Royston Daniels….Russet Potatoes I think….the girl who managed to hypnotise….everyone!! including Rigsby, was described as a little mouse…overlooked by everyone…but having the abilit yto worm her way into peoples heads gave her a great power…maybe it is time to look at the list and decide who is the LEAST likely person!!
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June 3rd, 2013 at 10:23 am
Rita, yes. In some ways, I think this could even be what Bruno meant about RJ being “a disappointment”. In much the same way as Dorothy was disappointed when she realised that the Great and Powerful Oz was merely a tin-pot magician; an ordinary man, practically a nobody. And if we go back to the pilot and look at Jane’s derogatory ‘psychic’ assessment of him, well, perhaps Jane’s words hit rather close to home: “ordinary”. (I eliminate Stiles for that reason; he already has power and influence and he doesn’t strike me as having any sort of deep-seated insecurity.)
Violet noted in her review that there have been lots of references to shows and spectacles lately; the possibility of a smokescreen, designed to trick, deceive, obfuscate. Make something grander or more awesome than it really is. But the magician behind it… could be anyone.
Reminds me a little of that episode in season 1 where the killer pretends to have severe learning/developmental difficulties. And then Jane trips him up in the interrogation room (using the man’s arrogance against him; which he often uses as a tool!), and the killer sheds that persona like a snake. It’s creepy and clever. Perhaps we could be seeing something like that again!
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June 3rd, 2013 at 10:57 am
Rita and Rose: I completely agree with you. In fact, I was just checking myself the exact words Jane used in his psychic reading of RJ in the pilot… 🙂 You’re right, Rose: he’s been accurate on many points… He said:
-“He killed at least eight women, that we know of… terrible sadistic crimes”. True on both points: RJ has proven that he enjoys the chase and playing mind games at least as much as he does killing, that’s why he mentally tortured Jane, first by killing his family, then by taunting him for years. And the “that we know of” has been proven right by ‘The Red Barn’: there were more killings before the official murders.
– Jane also said that he could get an image of the evil man because “true demonic evil burns like fire, it burns with a terrible cold dark flame”. Again, he’s right on the “cold” part of his character (RJ eliminating his own minions when he dims them as no longer useful) and on the “fire”, since it’s a well-used metaphor on the show (see all those episodes names “Throwing Fire”, “Ball of Fire”, and so on). The fact that it connects with the reference to Blake is another bonus…
Now, if we are to infer that Jane had been right on the spot all along, then the final part of his reading is pretty interesting indeed: “RJ is an ugly, tormented little man, an ugly soul, sad, very sad”… If he was accurate too, then RJ is not a charismatic man, but that rather an easily discarded suspect, like both of you pointed out. Like Partridge (a pathetic little ghoul), Haffner (a not very bright ambitious man), Reede Smith (an agent easily overlooked), McAllister (a small town sheriff)… or even Kirkland, who fits perfectly the “tormented” part.
And love the reference to Dorothy and the Wizard of Oz… Pretty convincing! 😉 And it’s intersting that you mention that killer in S1, Rose, because he was a fan of ‘Moby Dick’ who Heller admitted was a reference he used to elaborate the revenge part of the show (as you pointed out in the “Cultural References” post… :D).
And it fits the way Carter introduced himself, like an ordinary man, with his flaws and problems, like anyone.
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June 3rd, 2013 at 12:16 pm
Okay I’m a tad late to the party here (and still haven’t read all the comments).
Thank you for this intersting review, there were some aspects I missed, even after watching it for the 20th time 😉
I actually wanted to point out a scene which intrigued me int he SF.
The scene that seems almost always neglected but for me was interesting in terms of “Jisbon” was the one before Jane talks with Pete. When Jane asks Lisbon to stay in the car, he explains to her that it’s not because Pete (his sort of family) doesn’t like her but because she is a cop. The thing that got me about that scene was that pause Jane makes before saying Police. (I get they were both still shocked about the happy memory thing but still)It’s almost as if he himself is thinking on the lines of: My family doesn’t trust you because you technically the “enemy”. And Lisbon voice actually cracks a bit and she sounds sad about it when she says she understands. It just had a bit of a Romeo & Juliet feeling about it (IMO), like the two families (Police & Carnies) can’t stand each other, Jane and Lisbon coming from opposite sides etc.
Don’t know if I got my point through here LOL, not sure how to exactly explain what I mean but hope you get it. Again I was intrigued by that scene because usually their car scene are always full of meaning but this one seemed as if it was just shot to explain why Jane talks to Pete alone, still it was the scene that sort of catched my interest right away.
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June 3rd, 2013 at 2:14 pm
zee — i believe that was oldman talking about the listening in to cell phone conversations. this was either a land line lookup or a GPS track on a cell phone — nice but not as ominous as the other theory.
i am on the fence regarding whether or not RJ is on the list. If RJ is really a team (or 2 or perhaps more) then someone else could easily be advanced as the “lead” RJ and not be on the list.
i also like the idea that the list revealed contains false leads and that, as i noted before, would certainly tend to incriminate some more than others.
so, violet (or anyone else) not jumping on the white orchid and lyre (or lute or something) on the wall at the initial crime scene? guess i’ll have to get back to digging…
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June 3rd, 2013 at 2:22 pm
“so, violet (or anyone else) not jumping on the white orchid and lyre (or lute or something) on the wall at the initial crime scene? guess i’ll have to get back to digging…”
Ooops! thanks for reminding me… Looking into it! 😛
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June 3rd, 2013 at 2:43 pm
thanks violet 🙂
something about that scene and even the cinematography… clearly the closeup with BP and the RJ smiley in the background is obvious. but i believe BP is framed with those two pictures in the background at least one time.
plus, there’s the cop outside who, at times, seems to be trying to listen in on the conversation. i thought she might be the woman from the coffee cart in “Strawberries and Cream” but after checking out some pictures i don’t think that’s the case. but if anyone else wants to doublecheck my delusions please feel free…lol
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June 3rd, 2013 at 3:41 pm
weird this comment got caught up in something…
===================================
thanks violet 🙂
something about that scene and even the cinematography… clearly the closeup with BP and the RJ smiley in the background is obvious. but i believe BP is framed with those two pictures in the background at least one time.
plus, there’s the cop outside who, at times, seems to be trying to listen in on the conversation. i thought she might be the woman from the coffee cart in “Strawberries and Cream” but after checking out some pictures i don’t think that’s the case. but if anyone else wants to doublecheck my delusions please feel free…lol
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June 3rd, 2013 at 4:46 pm
Hey Reviewbrain,
I just wanted to leave you a little something about the comment you left way, way at the start of the comments.
I think it’s very probable that season six will be better, but I’m not so sure it will be the last.
SPOILER ALERT!
In an interview I read, Bruno Heller said, “I think it would be very odd if Red John falls dead and the show stops right there. Because the natural question is what happens next?” See the website (:RED BLOG:) for the full interview.
I have read many, many comments where people said that they would watch the show if Red John was caught. Quite a few of those said they would stop watching if this didn’t happen soon.
So if the ratings stay steady for the Sunday night slot show they could come back for a seventh and final season. I seriously doubt it would go any farther than that because it’s not the sort of series that can. And as far as I can gather Heller and Baker don’t want it to go past seven.
The only thing I hope for is that Heller has enough time to finish the story how he wants.
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June 3rd, 2013 at 4:48 pm
My take on why people will be disappointed in whoever is RJ: It’s like the ending of an Agatha Christie who-done-it. The final reveal is often disappointing because the reader is so often wrong in whom they have suspected. At least that’s true for me. The ending always makes me feel stupid for not being able to have figured it out myself.
At this point I feel the same as others that it’s not Who RJ is, it’s How he/they will be dealt with at the end of the day. And what collateral damage might have to be endured (I hope none).
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June 3rd, 2013 at 4:50 pm
Huh, truth be told, the background is so blurry that I’m not entirely sure the painted flowers are orchids, but they might be…
So, first, the music instrument that looks like a lute: Jane likes classic music, as it was showed many times. The only memory seen onscreen of his family was Angela and Charlotte playing the piano (‘Für Elise’ by Beethoven, if I’m not mistaken) and Jane used a question about Peter and the Wolfe to trick a mother who was using her daughter to get an alibi in S1 ‘Ladies in Red’: music must have played a great part in his family life…
Plus, music it is a taste Jane shares with RJ. Actually, that’s one of the very few insights we got into his lifestyle: Rosalind told Jane that he likes Bach and we saw him drinking tea in the cellar in ‘Red John’s Footsteps’. There were various mentions of music in the episodes preceding the finales
– in S1: Bach mentioned in the finale indeed,
– in S3: the orchestra (‘Rhapsody in Red’) which made Jane enthusiastic before ‘Strawberry and Cream’,
– in S4: ‘Ruby Slippers’ ended with an hopeful song shortly before ‘Red rover, Red Rover’ aired
– in S5: the musical a few episodes ago (when Kirkland killed Lennon).
In each of those finales, Jane met RJ somehow (Carter, the voice over the phone, a message via Lorelei…). It was also present during another almost confrontation between Jane and his nemesis: when Jane rushed to Rosalind’s house because she told him Roy was visiting, they found her playing the piano too. And maybe he was also confronting him in ‘Behind the Red Curtain’ when he talked to Kirkland, who knows…
So, I think the lute is a reminder of that shared passion for music and it also ties in nicely with the show theme, since many of those finales were related to showbiz and/or were associated with other episodes involving shows ( S5 ‘Red Velvet Cupcakes’ featured a radio talk show, S5 ‘Red Letter Day’ featured a magic show, as well as S4 ‘Pink Champagne on Ice’, whose name came from a song, like ‘So Long, and Thanks for All The Red Snapper’…). Not to mention that the motel name was Torchlight according to Rose, like the musical title was “Torch”.
Therefore, if we are to give the lute a deeper meaning, I think that it would remind us viewers of RJ’s similarities with Jane (foreshadowing the psychic angle), announce a confrontation of sorts between the two men (Lorelei’s message) as well as it might hint that RJ is setting up a show (playing with Jane). Or maybe I’m reading too much into a simple detail, that’s entirely possible! 😀
Still, it’s interesting that it’s closely associated with some orchid-looking flowers: after all, there was a painting in the Orchid Lane house, right when Lorelei was talking to Jane (representing irises, I believe. Or something like that, they were a bit blurry too…). Those enhanced the flower aspect of the scene, hence enlightening the connection with orchids… So, given that orchids were associated both with Charlotte/ his hope for a new life and with Lorelei/ his hope to get RJ and see his quest come to an end, I guess the flowers coupled with the lute on the wall might point to Jane’s dilemma (to stop hunting down RJ or to keep up with his obsession) and hint that the choice would soon not longer be his to make…
And I’m aware that those theories are only interpretations: I may be totally wrong, so feel free to contradict me! 🙂
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June 3rd, 2013 at 4:57 pm
Hi mosquitoinuk, (I hope I spelled that right.)
You may not actually get to read this seeing as the comment I’m commenting on was way up at the top of the comments, but I’ll try anyway.
On your 1st point, I agree with you absolutely that Lisbon would never bring her feelings up just like that. It’s completely OOC. The only thing I disagree on is that Lisbon is, “nowhere near ready to acknowledge her feelings for him.” She’s not close, but I don’t think she’s “nowhere near.”
Out of curiosity, what makes you think she is?
About the 2nd point you made, I agree, but I’d just like to add that I think Red John’s mistake is that he is “going to start killing again often.”
Anyway, really liked your comment.
Bonnie
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June 3rd, 2013 at 5:26 pm
Hey,
For those who thought the death of Red John’s friend in this episode was too repetitive, I thought I’d just say. She’s the only disciple that has taken their own life.
Dumar 1.23- Shot by Jane.
Rebecca 2.8- Poisoned by Red John.
Todd Johnson 3.9- Lite on fire by Craig O’Laughlin.
Gas Station Attendant 3.23+24- Shot by LaRoche.
Craig O’Laughlin 3.23+24- Shot by Hightower and Van Pelt.
Lorelei 5.16- Stabbed by Red John.
Social Worker 5.22- Committed suicide.
As far as the dissatisfaction with her method of suicide, that is harder to justify, but think about it this way.
She would have been searched for weapons and since we didn’t see definitively where on her person she got the pill from, we can’t really blame someone for not catching it. It was a very small packet.
I have one complaint of my own that coincides with other peoples. I do think they could have made the team a bit more competent at their jobs throughout this season. In some episodes you think the team was just fine, and in others you’re wondering if they’re trying to make them look inept. I think this is definitely a character driven show. I know that if I only watched it for the story lines, I wouldn’t have kept up with it. However I love the characters so much that I am sticking with this one to the (hopefully not) bitter end.
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June 3rd, 2013 at 5:43 pm
“For those who thought the death of Red John’s friend in this episode was too repetitive, I thought I’d just say. She’s the only disciple that has taken their own life.”
You’re forgetting that woman who was sent at the hotel to kill Hightower in ‘Strawberry and Cream’, Bonnie: she jumped off the balcony…
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June 3rd, 2013 at 5:51 pm
Love your comments, Violet!! 🙂
Based on that theory, it would definitely appear that Red John tends to lash out at Jane when Jane is right on the money (or at least close) – perhaps he is angered by the fact that yes, Jane, *is* that smart and can “read” him so easily. The latest letter smacks of jealousy: “you think you’re so clever”, etc. etc. It would support the rivalry theory supported by some posters (e.g. a sibling or family member, maybe a rival carny worker/mentalist, especially when you add all the two-sides-of-the-same coin stuff we’ve seen between them – like the shared taste for music, as you point out). The love/hate angle is a curious one, then. Perhaps it’s only when Red John is feeling confident and secure (i.e. one step ahead of Jane) that he enjoys the game. What a sore loser, lol!!!
I’d be interested to know if any of the other victims have been targeted for similar reasons i.e. to ‘punish’ them for somehow crossing him, or whether it was all purely to bolster his megalomaniac tendencies (as I see it). Obviously some were killed to bind his minions more closely to him (as ‘gifts’), but it would be good to see the team investigate any links between the previous victims.
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June 3rd, 2013 at 5:52 pm
I’ve posted another vanishing comment, but have learned my lesson and will wait for it to be moderated!!
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June 3rd, 2013 at 6:05 pm
Well,
I’m being quite a chatterbox today, hope it’s not annoying anyone.
I wanted to throw a theory in here and see what anybody thinks.
I made a rather lengthy comment a few episodes back about how I thought Red John might go after Lisbon in the season five finale.
As the finale release date got closer I realized this wouldn’t happen, but I still hold out hope that it will. (Please tell me that doesn’t make me sound cold and creepy.)
I don’t have a lot to back this idea up, so let me know if any of you think I’m grasping at straws. (I won’t be offended, just give me the reason you disagree.)
In the note Red John had Lorelei record it said, “I’m going to start killing again, often. Until you catch me, or I catch you.”
I found it eerily disturbing. Not the “Until you catch me,” part, that makes sense. It’s the, “or I catch you,” that has my imagination spiking to, perhaps, ridiculous conclusions.
I’ve always considered Jane trying to get Red John as a sort of cat and mouse game. Jane being the cat and Red John as the mouse, most of the time. But this line switched things up for me a bit. Jane is still playing cat and mouse, but Red John it seems to me may be attacking using the mousetrap play. He knows where Jane is, it shouldn’t be a problem for Red John to “catch” him. Unless he is using the term catch to mean with bait, hence, my mousetrap theory.
Now, tell if I’m stretching, but the only “bait” I can really see Red John using would be Lisbon. Strategically speaking it’s a really good idea. Not only could Red John have Jane come to him, but he could also have a bargaining chip to save his neck. Red John, like any other human being, I’m sure has a wish to live. Especially as he doesn’t believe in an afterlife, this life is all he has.
So, tell me if any of you think I’m reaching for the impossible. I’d appreciate feedback. I’m rather nervous about this theory. Thanks.
Bonnie
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June 3rd, 2013 at 6:15 pm
Thank you bloomingviolet2013,
A rather careless over site on my part, thanks for correcting me.
It’s still not overly repetitive, in my opinion, but it does change things a little.
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June 3rd, 2013 at 6:16 pm
Also, Sally Carter killed herself in prison (Little Red Book), but we still aren’t sure of the Carter’s connection to Red John.
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June 3rd, 2013 at 6:31 pm
Bonnie Caledonia wrote: “On your 1st point, I agree with you absolutely that Lisbon would never bring her feelings up just like that. It’s completely OOC. The only thing I disagree on is that Lisbon is, “nowhere near ready to acknowledge her feelings for him.” She’s not close, but I don’t think she’s “nowhere near.”
I don’t know. On one hand, your and Mosquitoinuk are right and your perception of her is accurate so far, since she’s all bent of keeping her private life and her feelings to herself. But, on the other hand, I don’t know… she’s started talking more about herself in some pretty unexpected outbursts of honesty: even though Jane had to poke her a bit, she talked about her feelings about Tommy, her past with Greg, and recently her reservations about sex fetishes…
Besides, both Jane and Lisbon seem prone to sudden declarations under pressure:
– Lisbon admitted that there were people who needed and cared about him (including herself, obviously) in ‘Red John’s Footsteps’;
– they started getting closer after his kidnapping in ‘Ball of Fire’ (as hinted by them sitting together on his couch);
– Jane began telling her there was something he had wanted to tell her for a long time when she was strapped to a bomb and they were about to find the killer (‘Strawberry and Cream’)… and, at the end of the episode, they both were breathing heavily over the phone in what seemed to be a moment between them after she was shot at;
– he admitted to loving her before shooting at her (‘The Crimson Hat’) and, after the debacle with the limo and Jane almost lost two fingers, they were sitting in the desert holding hands.
So, following those instances, is that really that unrealistic to imagine that their usually well-kept composure could be lost again if the pressure goes up? There have been hints that things were getting more complicated recently and that the tension has been building up since his confession of love in last season finale: she’s been shouting at him about not being his girlfriend, they had a fight, the tension in the car while listening to the radio show was almost palpable, they had a sex talk… Things are getting messier and I’m not sure she’s as collected as she used to be with him… Therefore I really wonder if she wasn’t about to allude even indirectly to what Barlow said about her feelings: I’m not sure she’s still calm enough to simply brush off something like that when it was said in front of him. I wonder if she wasn’t about to do as she did with the subject of Lorelei and in ‘Red Velvet Cupcakes’: 1) denying at first that her feelings were involved (asking Jane about his welfare and his feelings concerning Lorelei instead of talking about her own in ‘The Crimson Ticket’/ denying that they were a couple in front of the receptionist in ‘RVC’), before 2) accepting to talk about them (getting angry at Jane during the Lorelei debacle in ‘There Will Be Blood’/ getting into that fetish talk in ‘RVC’). In other words, even if she wasn’t planning to talk about it at first, I’m not sure the question wouldn’t have popped up at some moment if Jane had let her do the talking. But of course, we will never know for sure. 😉
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June 3rd, 2013 at 8:17 pm
She seems more attached to him than ever. Since his “love you”, she is different, she is wearing earrings since 5×13. They are closer. He said in 5×15 that was learning five simple steps to drive her wild. He knows yet the musical instrument she used to play.”There’s such an air…”
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June 3rd, 2013 at 9:05 pm
Well,
I’m being a bit of a chatterbox today, hope that’s all right.
I wanted to throw a theory in here and see what anybody thinks.
I made a rather lengthy comment a few episodes back about how I thought Red John might go after Lisbon in the season five finale.
As the finale release date got closer I realized this would not happen, but I still hold out hope that it will. (Please tell me that doesn’t make me sound cold and creepy.)
I don’t have much to back this theory up so let me know if any of you think I’m grasping at straws. (I won’t be offended, just tell me why you disagree.)
In the note Red John had Lorelei record it said, “I’m going to start killing again, often. Until you catch me or I catch you.”
I found that eerily disturbing. The, “Until you catch me,” part is fine, but the, “or I catch you,” had my imagination spiking to new and possibly nutty levels.
I’ve always thought that Jane and Red John were playing a game of cat and mouse. But this one line made me think that Red John may attack with the mousetrap play. He knows where Jane is, so “catch” could mean more along the lines of baiting, hence mousetrap.
The only thing that seems to make sense for Red John to use as bait is Lisbon. Also strategically speaking it’s a very good idea. This way he could get Jane to come to him on his own, and it could be a way to, perhaps, save his own neck. Red John I would imagine, like any other human being, wants to live. Especially as he doesn’t believe in an after life. This life is all he has.
So, there’s my theory. Feedback in whatever form, disagreeing or agreeing, is welcome. I would really like to hear what people think of this.
Bonnie
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June 3rd, 2013 at 9:18 pm
Excellent comment, Violet! (re Lisbon) I agree with your assessment. It is a pity that the writers didn’t see fit to show us what she was about to say. I really want to see J and L have a full-scale fight and get those feelings out in the open. I haven’t given up hope yet.
@Bonnie (still no reply button!)
“I think Red John’s mistake is that he is “going to start killing again often.”
Yours is a brilliant insight–sooner or later even the cleverest, most methodical killer makes a mistake, and the angrier he is, the more likely that is to happen. For ten years Red John has been gloating at Jane, being the smartest guy in the room, elusive even to the great Patrick Jane and the CBI. But something in him has snapped, otherwise there would be no reason for the elaborate filmed Lorelei reading of his letter, in which he says he’s changing the rules. He’s threatened by Jane getting closer than ever, and his threat to start killing again more often is similar to the state of rage he was in when he killed Jane’s wife and daughter–although he left no clues to his whereabouts after that crime. The game with Jane is no longer amusing for him when he realizes that he might lose. I would not be surprised if RJ makes a fatal mistake (or two) in season six.
Also @Bonnie: I only wish that there were plans in the works for a 7th season! I am one of the few fans (it seems) who agrees with both factions: that the RJ story is integral to the show and is still interesting, *and* that the show would be equally compelling if it continued with single episode crimes that don’t include Red John! 🙂 Rumors are flying everywhere and you can’t always believe what Heller himself says. I have heard that Baker wants the show to end–he is involved in other projects that will demand his time–but I have not read that as a direct quote from him. I also read the recent interview with Heller and I interpreted his statement to mean that Red John’s capture/reveal would not be the last episode of the show, because it is too abrupt and doesn’t explore what happens afterward to Jane and Lisbon. However, he might have been referring to season 6. He also once said (a while back) that Red John’s capture/reveal would be the end of the show. So you see he can’t be trusted. Maybe not about the list of 7, either.
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June 3rd, 2013 at 9:22 pm
Just a note of interest to add to the music commentary:
Rosalind is playing Bach’s Prelude #1 from The Well-Tempered Clavier. I don’t remember her playing Für Elise which is by Beethoven.
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June 3rd, 2013 at 9:38 pm
Thanks, Suzjazz! You made very good points too! 🙂
“But something in him has snapped, otherwise there would be no reason for the elaborate filmed Lorelei reading of his letter, in which he says he’s changing the rules.”
I think he was angry because, as Auli pointed out above, she probably was someone special and Jane took her from him. He was forced to kill her even though he hadn’t been planning to (he had let her live until then, even though she was a liability). Making her carry his message once again was a way to show to Jane that he got her back at the very end, since she accepted to be his voice in threatening him. Of course, it’s a twisted logic, given that he killed her afterwards…
“I don’t remember her playing Für Elise which is by Beethoven.”
It wasn’t Rosalind who has been playing Für Elise (you’re right, I think she was playing Roy’s favorite air, from Bach): Für Elise was played by Charlotte and Angela in the flashback in the early season 1. That’s actually the only time we got to see the two of them if we except the hallucination of Charlotte in ‘Devil’s Cherry’.
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June 3rd, 2013 at 10:16 pm
It was while sitting vigil in the hospital with the young girl in Redwood that Jane heard someone playing Fur Elise and remembered his wife and daughter.
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June 3rd, 2013 at 10:28 pm
Hey suzjazz,
Thanks for the reply. Really good comment. And yes, Heller cannot be trusted, that’s why I try to take all the interviews I read by anyone involved in the Mentalist rather lightly. Sometimes, however, I slip up and find myself hoping for things that I really have no reason to believe will happen. As far as the 7 suspect list is concerned, at this point at least I’m inclined to believe it. Heller said it rather definitively. Unless he’s in the habit of lying outright. I don’t know. Is he?
Bonnie
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June 3rd, 2013 at 11:08 pm
What a lovely way to spend Monday evening by drinking tea, listening storm outside and reading your lovely comments!
Bonnie: I agree with you that RJ is probably planning to build up a trap for Patrick and the most obvious bait would be Lisbon. But I really,really, really don’t want to see Lisbon being a damsel in distress and being kidnapped. The damsel of the show is Patrick, not Lisbon and I don’t want that our little miss fierce would end up in some basement or whatever waiting for her shining knight for rescue. Hell, no! However, because she is the most obvious bait or a target, I do hope that RJ would make a real thread towards her or then the writers really need to explain it well why RJ hasn’t make Lisbon or the team targets.
Bonnie and Suz: I also would like to see what happens to Patrick and co. after RJ. I watched e9s4 (the redshirt, “the Jane and Lisbon sharing ice cream” episode) recently and there the “victim’s” ex-wife told about the victim that after achieving his goals for becoming a star, he didn’t know what to do after that and started to fill the holes with drugs and other women. It would be interesting to see if Patrick would have such holes and how he would cope with them.
Finally, here’s my wish-list for season 6 (I assume that it is the final season but hope for more):
– The writers really need to explain it ASAP how Patrick ended up with these 7 names and why he neglected the previous descriptions etc.
– Jane and Lisbon having a real adult like talk like Rigsby and Van Pelt had in RVC
– Lisbon using Jane’s first name (actually, I’m more interested to see the situation and the reasons why she would do it)
– I want Mashburn! Think about the drama!
– Patrick said that he would catch Erica Flynn and I want to see him catch her (there are some rumours about some possible Paris episode in season 6, maybe there?)
– Whatever happened to Mancini, FBI boss, Darcy, Rosalind, the fake psychic woman, Hightower and so on?
– MORE TEAM! I love Lisbon and Jane banter but I want to see them work more with the team (and I want more Cho)
– More LaRoche
– I want Minelli back! (that could be possible, the whole Red Dawn ending)
– I want to have an episode with plenty of girl power meaning that I wanna see Lisbon and Van Pelt being asskicking awesome
– More info about the characters’ past
– Some humour and plenty of banter
– Jisbon kiss
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June 4th, 2013 at 3:30 am
It’s hard to say if Heller is lying outright to his fans–it seems like a mean thing to do, unworthy of the writer/creator of one of the best shows on TV. I just get upset with him when he gives enigmatic or incomplete answers to questions. For example, someone asked him if Lisbon’s feelings for Jane would be further explored in season 6, and he said that they had always been explored and it was a long-running theme throughout the show. He said that both Lisbon and Van Pelt are going to re-evaluate their feelings (I don’t have the exact quote in front of me, but you can google the interview) He never says a word about Jane’s feelings for Lisbon, which leads me to believe that there will not be a romance. Yet it has been clear for a long time now that Jane loves Lisbon–he’s even *said* it, whereas Lisbon has yet to declare her feelings, although they were expressed for her by Sean Barlow. The show is confusing, ambiguous, contradictory enough without Heller giving us misleading information. I don’t know what he has to gain from it except maybe generate more interest in the show.
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June 4th, 2013 at 4:43 am
It’s been what, nine years, since Jane joined CBI? In that time, he hasn’t seriously involved himself with another woman. His ex-wife must have been this magical person – the female equivilant of Red John. Who doesn’t move on after nine years, especially a stud like Jane? Jane is nine years older. It’s obvious he loves Lisbon, but, being older, in a much different way than the Younger Jane loved his wife. I don’t see them as the traditional couple wanting to raise a family – especially after what happened to Jane’s previous family, not to mention there’s a maniac on the loose who probably kill them both if they made that kind of a move. But it would be hard to see either one of them wanting to move forward in life without the other. Anyway, now that the RJ thing has run about as far as it can, if the show is to run past the RJ plot line, there’s a lot of potential for where it can go. Exploring Jane’s and Lisbon’s relationship after RJ. Exploring the other characters more – we find them all endearing and would all like to see more of them. Maybe exploring a vendetta like Lisbon’s with Tommy Volker as sort of a new slant on things. I thought the Volker thing would last longer. It ended very abruptly. Maybe the actor (Desmond from Lost) had another gig and they had to ice him?
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June 4th, 2013 at 9:19 am
I loved your wish-list. I sign below. But, Erica, I want to Lisbon to catch the bitch.
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June 4th, 2013 at 9:43 am
Another detailed, comprehensive and illuminating review, thanks a lot Violet! You are always very good at seeing the long running themes, so I’ll be looking forward to see your recap eagerly! And thank you reviewbrain & Chibi!
Dear P: We will miss your comments! As many have said before, the points you made are absolutely right and I share many of them. I started to watch in the middle of season 3, and enduring just one summer hiatus made me understand that waiting for RJ’s identity to be revealed for more than five years must have been very frustrating! But there is something in this show that makes me feel more connected and close to the characters and I just can’t stop watching! May I suggest it to try watching with less intense attention if it’s ok with you, like maybe when we watch other shows? That way it might not be that much irritating and keep some elements of entertainment for you, as it would be very sad for us to lose your frank, logical and very illuminating comments!
I’m extremely slow in thinking, and came up with more questions than answers, so I’m hoping that the following would make sense 🙂 :
@ Violet: I had a feeling that the sped up scene at the beginning was meant to convey some important info, and the only thing I found was that Van Pelt was not at her desk for like half of the day, but other team members were present, even Lisbon, and we know that Van Pelt rarely goes out on a mission alone, so…?
May I add that the theme about husband and wife co-conspirators in ‘Red Hair and Silver Tape’ featuring McAlister and also Carter and his wife was again repeated in the last episode as the locksmith and his wife? There Jane said something about the locksmith that made me ponder: “[He was] too proud to let anyone know his wife was doing his job for him”! And I have a vague feeling that it may concern RJ, too!
There is another thing in the past episode that may be relevant: There LaRoche asked Jane how Brenda found out about his box, that only he and Jane knew about it. And Jane answered that there is someone else who LaRoche missed, Donny Culpepper, the thief who Jane had hired before to break into his previous safe. So could we have a parallel here? Did we count everybody who had access to Jane’s board?!
@ CHill & Rose UK: Yes, The book Cho is reading is definitely ‘A Tale of Two Cities’. That print is from a classics books series of a publisher with unique artwork for each title, and I checked the front and back covers, and assure you 100% that it’s the same title! As Violet noted, the talk about Rigsby’s relationship with Van Pelt just after J/L Talk about secrets is interesting. It is also interesting as Jane was also talking about suspects being among people they know very well! And I think that Red Sign about “Motel Rules” on the staircase leading to Eileen’s room was alluding to the episode’s name! Also later Lisbon’s quiet moving lips reminded me of Partridge doing so in ‘Red Lacquer Nail Polish’, and wondered what are they saying in both instances? And about the possible connection between the victims, there was a newspaper clipping on Jane’s board claiming the same!
@ III Frogs: Very true! Sean Barlow must know RJ, and the way his wife and/or assistant, who was describe as a bad liar by PJ, looked at him shows that he is lying or hiding something. Also Pete looked somewhat suspicious, and Lisbon’s look at Pete and Jane while staying in her car was somewhat unsettling to me!
I also think that Sean Barlow guessed about Lisbon’s feelings at that night from her quick telling glance at Jane at that moment, but I can’t understand how he knew she had an alcoholic father. Maybe he himself or through RJ had followed the doings of both of them.
@ suzjazz: About if we should trust Heller in believing that the list is genuine or not, I can’t make up my mind! The way RJ spoke of it as a “lucky break”, and Heller’s words give it credibility. But that list is not very interesting, and I hope that the RJ story would include a twist and not be the way we think of it now. It would be awesome if RJ himself is some sort of red herring, and that way maybe some other characters are involved that discovering their true identity would be even a bigger revelation! But though it seems plausible, I think it would be lame if RJ was many, many people, but a small number or just two would make a better story. Does this make sense to you at all?!
As others have mentioned that “Or I find you!” part was very vague, and I don’t know what to make of it. Could it be that Red John is going to trick PJ into a trap and thus defeat him and kill him or kill a dear friend of his? Or does it mean that he is confident that he will succeed in converting him?
I think that RJ found out about that specific memory and its significance to Jane, because Jane said that “Whenever I think of happy times in my childhood, I see a certain image.” And he was specific; he did not say that it was one of the things that come to his mind. How RJ found about it? Well my guesses are as good as yours, but his psychotherapy files was a good guess!
One other thing is that I don’t recall RJ ever calling himself a psychic, even in this episode he is talking about cleverness, so I think that him being a “real psychic” is only Sean’s claim!
I wrote a very late comment about the last episode, would appreciate to hear your opinions about it. Thank you all very much!
P.S. If there is one lasting happy memory that will always be with me from this episode, it would be that song by Gene Pitney. It really shook my heart the first time I heard it, and when I followed a link on estatica’s twitter to the complete song, and heard it in its entirety, just like her, I couldn’t stop listening to it! I don’t exaggerate; it is the most beautiful English song I’ve ever heard!
“Something’s gotten hold of my hand
Dragging my soul to a beautiful land”
Wow!
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June 4th, 2013 at 11:02 am
Bonnie Caledonia wrote: “On your 1st point, I agree with you absolutely that Lisbon would never bring her feelings up just like that. It’s completely OOC. The only thing I disagree on is that Lisbon is, “nowhere near ready to acknowledge her feelings for him.” She’s not close, but I don’t think she’s “nowhere near.”
violet wrote: “I don’t know. On one hand, your and Mosquitoinuk are right and your perception of her is accurate so far, since she’s all bent of keeping her private life and her feelings to herself. But, on the other hand, I don’t know… she’s started talking more about herself in some pretty unexpected outbursts of honesty: even though Jane had to poke her a bit, she talked about her feelings about Tommy, her past with Greg, and recently her reservations about sex fetishes… ”
Agree with Violet, I don’t think (since start S5) for Lisbon to talk about her feelings is OOC anymore. Violet listed a few points why.
BUT I think in that particular scene Jane’s reaction to what she migth say is the more important one and not what Lisbon was about to say (clearly Heller the mean tease and serial -interrupter planned exactly this discussion)
So Jane thinking Lisbon was about to talk about THAT is what’s interesting, there was no need for him to interrupt her when he thought she was going to say something about the list, he was about to spill anyway so he could effectively have answered whatever she would say (she wasn’t ranting, no need for him to soothe waters) but instead he obviously was nervous (the look on his face and the heavy, fast breathing) and than tried to get her away from what she wanted to say, I wondered all the time why he chose Bertram to be the first “reveal”, yes he wanted her to understand why she couldn’t tell anyone at the CBI but for that Haffner/Partridge would’ve done the deal too but the fact he chose the one person which would shock her the most baffled me a little bit. I mean his approach was “right in the face” instead of treading carefully.
It seemed to be a mirroring of the S4 finale, Lisbon asking him what he meant when he said “love you” (btw her voice for me was almost the same in that scene as in the car scene now, which makes me believe she actually wanted to talk about feelings, I mean they’re out in the open no matter if they acknowledge it or not, so maybe Lisbon thought ‘what the heck’) and Jane again shot her down, back then he told her he didn’t remember and now he interrupts her possible confession and to make it last shocks her enough to forget about what she wanted to say.
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June 4th, 2013 at 11:09 am
cont…. forgot to add:
It’s funny how he apologizes for being secretive and controlling but with interrupting her he does control the whole situation. LOL
And I think someone already mentioned that, he still takes away the things she might hold against her feelings for him by acknowledging it.
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June 4th, 2013 at 11:23 am
Where did the reply buttons on the comments go btw?
anomalycommenter wrote:”I also think that Sean Barlow guessed about Lisbon’s feelings at that night from her quick telling glance at Jane at that moment, but I can’t understand how he knew she had an alcoholic father. Maybe he himself or through RJ had followed the doings of both of them.”
Well eh said that he kept tabs on Jane all this years, I don’t think it’s too far stretched to say that he probably read it in some article concerning a case they’ve worked. The media loves tragic stories and they def know about her past, someone always talks. Just you wouldn’t think about that right away and sure it would spook you. Barlow is a conman and according to Jane good (he couldn’t read him), so I think he read it somewhere. (Or there is really another source)
Agree on the “being in love with Patrick” line, only saw it the second time around, but he makes a pause and actually asks Lisbon to show him where she was, so subconsciously she “answered” him without recognizing it and looks at Jane in a shy and “omg I hope he doesn’t know” kinda way.
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June 4th, 2013 at 12:34 pm
@phoenixx: The Removal of nested commenting ability may be part of RB’s fight with spams! Managing this volume of comments and keeping her blog clean must be a hard task.
Very good take on why Jane interrupted Lisbon in the car! And your opinion about the source of Sean Barlow’s information makes perfect sense, thanks! 🙂
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June 4th, 2013 at 12:59 pm
@anomalycommenter You’re welcome and thanks to you for the info, didn’t know there was a problem with the comments. 😀
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June 4th, 2013 at 1:28 pm
Really RJ seems to be a jealous ex colleague, or a sort of. He seems to know Jane, I think you are right. It doesn’t seem like he took knowledge de Jane the way we know… I always thought RJ was someone Jane Knew before his family’s death.
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June 4th, 2013 at 1:45 pm
“His ex-wife must have been this magical person – the female equivilant of Red John.” What did you mean?
The other points make sense, you’re right, even though I hope they raise a family. It’ Jane’s way. He loves children and she Is so sweet. About Volker, I the same opinion. It sounds like is not finished yet. It was so easy. He ‘s powerful man.
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June 4th, 2013 at 2:01 pm
@ Phoenixx: I really love your comments and I totally agree about Jane’s reaction. Your comparison with his dismissal of Lisbon’s question in ‘The Crimson Hat’ is spot on! 🙂 I didn’t fully realize before that indeed he riled her up with his mention of Bertram, just like he tried to distracted her then by mentioning the circumstances why he had been hyped up…
I just wanted to add that Jane’s nervousness can be explained either 1) by him not wanting her to suggest that she no longer wanted to work with him like this, since he didn’t trust her with his secret or 2) because he realized that she was about to tackle the question of their feelings… which was dangerous, because he couldn’t accept to let things get deeper between them with RJ looming over their heads, yet I don’t think he would have rejected her either. It’s interesting that both explanations indicate that he’s all bent in preserving the status quo, professionally and personally. A bit of a paradox, since he’s usually the one who wants to get closer (even if he states otherwise) and who encourages her to live a little… but she’s the one both times who has been stopped by him when she was nearing dangerously uncharted territories.
(Again, thanks everyone for your comments! I might not answer systematically because the lack of reply button makes it a little difficult, but rest assured that each of them is truly appreciated! 🙂 )
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June 4th, 2013 at 3:47 pm
Much to chew on. 😉
In terms of Lisbon opening up regarding personal feelings: I think it’s been said before that however good a detective she is, she’s not so great at picking up on relationship subtleties (at least not the people around her). She was shocked at Van Pelt & Rigsby’s declaration in season 2 (apparently the only person who didn’t guess it), for example, so I think that maybe Jane’s “love you” was the first time she’d even considered the notion – at all – of romantic feelings. It was such a shock to her system/world that she actually felt compelled to ask about it. Other women would probably have been all “He got me a pony, he must wish to marry me immediately”. And having got no real answer, of course it’s been playing at the back of her mind this season. She doesn’t know where they stand anymore, hence all the misunderstandings and struggle between them to get back on an even keel. It’s opened up a new box in her mind and made her wonder whether she too has feelings for him, as we have seen. But in general she’s so straightforward/professional/not given to lovey-dovey stuff that she misses all the signs (unless they are completely blatant or spelled out for her – and Jane’s signals are mixed at best). Which I think is very endearing.
@ Violet. I love J & L, but I always thought that his “I’ve been wanting to tell you something” was a distraction technique designed to throw Gupta off guard. 😉
@ Anomaly: I always enjoy reading your comments. In the speed-scene, I only really noticed the cleaner. There was a dodgy cleaner once before, I recall.
Also, your idea about the husband/wife teams made me wonder if that too could foreshadow Lisbon doing Jane’s job for him. A) He’s been training her and B) Perhaps this means that she’ll take out RJ in the end.
Extremely interesting idea about RJ being the mother of all red herrings!!!
@ Auli: A wish list! That was what I wanted to ask RB – if we could maybe have a separate page for “season 6 wish list” in the run-up to the new season. I thought it might be fun. 😉
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June 5th, 2013 at 2:38 am
@auli: I just wanted to say that your wish list is EXACTLY the same as mine, especially wanting to see characters like Minelli, Rosalind, LaRoche, Hightower (i loved her!) re-appear; also want L and J to have an adult conversation like Grace and Wayne (why can’t they??? they have loved each other for just as long!!!) Also want to see some kickass girl power of the kind we used to see from Lisbon and VP–together they are awesome! They don’t need to be rescued. I’d like to see *Jane* used as bait and Lisbon rescuing *him.* Now that would be one hell of an episode! (Bruno, are you listening?????) Can we send him a message?
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June 5th, 2013 at 2:50 am
“he’s all bent in preserving the status quo, professionally and personally. A bit of a paradox, since he’s usually the one who wants to get closer (even if he states otherwise) and who encourages her to live a little… but she’s the one both times who has been stopped by him when she was nearing dangerously uncharted territories.”
Spot on, Violet. I could not have expressed it better myself.
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June 5th, 2013 at 7:39 am
@ Rose UK: Thanks, very Kind of you! Very good take on L/J feelings and readiness to take a step forward, that’s a very interesting discussion that you are having! I’m very eager to know the secrets Lisbon was talking about (in the finale as well as in ‘Panama Red‘) and how much of it is really known to Jane, and their possible relevance to the topic at hand. Aside from their personalities and the known obstacles (looming shadow of RJ), what other reservations do they have? What else is keeping them back? (It should not be the CBI rules; I don’t think that particular rule applies to the consultants, though I remember the rules was said to apply to “CBI employees” not just agents. And even if it does, it seems that there are more important elements involved.)
Yes, I remember that dodgy cleaner, who knows? As III Frogs said above, “They never tell us anything”! Who knows what is red herring or not anymore! Your idea of the recurrence of husband/wife teams foreshadowing Lisbon doing Jane’s Job for him is really brilliant. And I think that eventuality is what Suzzjaz declared as her ideal somewhere above!
@ mosquitoinuk: Very important point about the order of Lorelei’s murder and the attic break in, I was not aware of that, thank you!
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June 5th, 2013 at 12:49 pm
@ Suz & Auli: I dunno, I wouldn’t mind seeing a bit of Lisbon-in-peril action, even though it’s a cliche! I mean, how else is Jane going to put his “I’m always going to save you” speech into practice?! 😉 Yes, yes, I know: that’s a very literal interpretation and there are many ways to “save” someone! We’ve already seen both of them come to the other’s rescue in different ways – physically (meaning danger on the job), professionally, emotionally (thinking here of Jane trying to cheer Lisbon up after Bosco’s death, as one example), legally (Lisbon punching that burglar to stop Jane getting into trouble for orchestrating a break-in). Oh fine, I’ve argued myself round to the opposite viewpoint now – Jane’s already saved her! Except… as the story’s white knight, Lisbon is the ultimate fixer/saver/rescuer/protector and hopefully will prove to be Jane’s redemption in the end. So it’d be nice to see him return the favour to the same extent. Darn it, I can’t make up my mind. 😉
Well, perhaps he could use his wits to get her out of trouble, only to find that she’s managed to get *herself* out of it. Maybe that would keep us all happy. 😉
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June 5th, 2013 at 2:09 pm
Or! Perhaps they could both end up in trouble (a la trapped in a box car) and they would have to use their talents in combination and conjunction: Lisbon with her police skills and Jane with his brain. The perfect partnership. 🙂
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June 5th, 2013 at 2:41 pm
CBI’s rules applies even to informers (see Summer and Cho in season four, Van Pelt said so him). Jane is under rules as well.
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June 5th, 2013 at 4:03 pm
Thanks Carla! I was not aware of that. I can sort of see why this particular rule might apply to agents, presumably too keep them focused when they are conducting an operation, and to confidential informants, cause it may compromise the confidentiality. But for the life of me I can’t understand why should it apply to office employees and particularly to consultants who often work under much more relaxed rules compared to regular employees. Wouldn’t it be an unnecessary restriction on their basic rights? You are completely right, but Van Pelt actually said:”We’re not allowed to date CIs.” specifically, so I still hope that it won’t apply to consultants! 🙂
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June 5th, 2013 at 4:09 pm
@violet: “he’s all bent in preserving the status quo, professionally and personally. A bit of a paradox, since he’s usually the one who wants to get closer (even if he states otherwise) and who encourages her to live a little… but she’s the one both times who has been stopped by him when she was nearing dangerously uncharted territories.”
First of all thank you 🙂 and agree about that, even more telling his feelings are real & deep. If they weren’t he wouldn’t be so hell bent on preventing to talk about it.
About the 3 secrets, anyone ever thought about the possibility he doesn’t actually know any and just said it because he knew she would back out? I’m sure he knows stuff but probably nothing too serious. Whereas Lisbon took the bait and was afraid he’d reveal something embarassing.
And about the CBI rules, isn’t it weird if the they apply to consultants and such. I’m mean technically they are ‘on their own time'(like Jane mentioned) and not actual employees. Not sure about the Summer thing, did VP say it was against the rules or was it more because of her profession? Isn’t it ‘forbidden’ within the team actually. Rigsby & Vp could have been together if one leaves the unit or am i totally wrong here?
I mean not being allowed to date/marry someone within the whole CBI seems ridiculous, you couldn’t possibly prevent that.
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June 5th, 2013 at 4:53 pm
At least maybe it is not ethical.
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June 5th, 2013 at 6:03 pm
@ Phoenixx: You are absolutely right! In 2×13,’Redline’, Lisbon summons Risgsby and Van Pelt and tells them that “Dating *within the unit* is strictly against CBI rules.”, and Van Pelt responds, “But they’ll make one of us transfer out of the unit.” So yes, It most probably only applies to coworkers within each unit. And yes, consultants are probably not considered official employees; they’re more like contractors. So there must be a very small chance for it to apply to Jane.
In giving advice to Cho, Van Pelt probably stated another CBI rule forbidding relationships with confidential informers, but actually as way to convey her disapproval of the type of girlfriend that Cho had chosen.
Very interesting thought about Lisbon’s secrets! Jane is a trickster and Lisbon is a real puzzle box, I don’t know what to think. Everything is possible!
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June 5th, 2013 at 6:05 pm
@ Carla: I think that I understand what you mean by saying “ethically”. But it may be more relevant in situations that there is a possibility of harassment and abuse. Like a university teacher and his/her students. Did I get what you mean correctly?
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June 5th, 2013 at 6:06 pm
@ Phoenixx: You are absolutely right! In 2×13,’Redline’, Lisbon summons Risgsby and Van Pelt and tells them that “Dating *within the unit* is strictly against CBI rules.”, and Van Pelt responds, “But they’ll make one of us transfer out of the unit.” So yes, It most probably only applies to coworkers within each unit. And yes, consultants are probably not considered official employees; they’re more like contractors. So there must be a very small chance for it to apply to Jane. Van Pelt probably stated another CBI rule forbidding relationships with confidential informers, but actually as way to convey her disapproval of the type of girlfriend that Cho had chosen.
Very interesting thought about Lisbon’s secrets! Jane is a trickster and Lisbon is a real puzzle box, I don’t know what to think. Everything is possible! 🙂
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June 5th, 2013 at 6:13 pm
Not harassment and abuse, but like teacher and student, for example, I don’t know, I just think so, because of Van Pelt said in the case Cho- Summer.
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June 5th, 2013 at 6:20 pm
@ Carla: OK, Thanks! I posted a response to phoenixx containing the exact phrases they used in the show. It would make it clearer if it gets through. 🙂
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June 6th, 2013 at 12:02 am
Carla – Sorry for not being clear. I just meant that if Jane still hadn’t had an interest with picking up with someone after nine years, his wife must have been some sort of super woman, just like RJ must be some sort of super human. Not a great analogy, I guess, but it seems to me that the writers here build these unbelievable (key word is unbelievable) characters off screen – whether it’s Jane’s ex wife or RJ who can get people to fall off a building for him at will or who is nine steps ahead of everyone on the planet, especially Jane.
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June 6th, 2013 at 12:30 am
I do believe that Jane loved his wife very much, but I truly don’t believe that it is his undying love that has kept him celibate for nine years. I think it is his overwhelming guilt. He feels that he doesn’t DESERVE to be happy. He carries his guilt around like a hair shirt and thinks that his only absolution is to kill the person responsible for his pain, Red John.
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June 6th, 2013 at 2:09 am
That’s it. I do agree with you in genre, number and grade, Valentine. That’s the way I think.
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June 6th, 2013 at 3:12 am
I also agree with Valentine about Jane thinking he doesn’t deserve to be happy.
Re Jane’s wife: I’m not sure she was a superwoman–all we know about her is through Jane’s eyes, and it sounds like she was his first love and they were quite young when they met. *He* views her as the perfect woman, an angel, thus her name, Angela. She didn’t have to be a superwoman. In the eyes of memory and the young Jane, she was perfect. Interestingly, Angela and Lisbon share many of the characteristics Jane says he’s looking for in a mate on the matchmaking video–at the end of the interview, Erica says, “She sounds like a great woman” (or something to that effect ) and he answers, “Yes, she was,” meaning Angela. But how does he describe her? “Someone honest that I can trust. Someone comfortable with herself. Who has seen the worst side of me and still loves me.” Isn’t that also Lisbon? Lisbon watches the video with eager and hopeful interest, looking for exactly these clues. If Jane is truly interested in moving on with a new woman, Lisbon is the only woman he’s met who even remotely matches this description.
Re Bonnie’s “mousetrap” theory: I think that’s a great theory. I am terrified that this is exactly what RJ has in mind: kidnap Lisbon to entrap Jane.
I just turned on the TV to watch “The Twilight Zone” but guess what was on instead? The Mentalist! Several shows in a row! 🙂 I am SO happy!
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June 6th, 2013 at 3:14 am
Disappearing comments again! Well I’ll just wait for them to appear!
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June 6th, 2013 at 5:05 am
Many thanks Violet and Reviewbrain. I know that both of you put so much love and effort into your reviews. Just want you both to know how much you are appreciated.
I have a couple of questions. First…..when Lorelei made the tape and read the letter from RJ, she looked very beat up especially on the left cheek. When she was found dead in the Snow White pose in the bed, she looked like a sleeping beauty. Do you think he kept her somehow alive and imprisoned until she healed? That would make him even more evil than I had imagined. Second…..I have wondered for some time that perhaps Patrick and Lisbon enjoy an offscreen relationship. I think I think that because of the bickering. If two people scrap it is sometimes because they are so comfortable with each other they forget to show their “company” faces because they can get away with it. I cant imagine Lisbon remarking to anyone else BITE ME! I guess what I am trying to say is that after ten years they must surely have gotten past the polite phase.
So my question would be……what are the chances that they already have
An intimate relationship. I have also wondered if Heller keeps teasing
Both sides….shipper and non shipper, trying not to take sides. I am thinking that the purist in Baker would like to keep sex out of it, judging from his remarks in an interview that the “sexy vibe” could come from VanPelt/Rigsby.
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June 6th, 2013 at 8:31 pm
Long time reader & first time posting.
I was wondering where RJ got his mentalist training. Because Alex Jane &
Sean Barlow are contempararies, does that mean that it’s possible that SB
was the person that trained RJ? That would certainly clarify why SB thinks
that PJ will never catch RJ. He did say that the Barlow’s were better than
the Jane’s. That would also explain the symmetry theme if PJ & RJ both
came from the carny world but are using their skills differently.
The thing that confuses me in all this is Heller seems to be hinting that RJ
has his roots in the carnival & Visualize. Is that possible?
Anyways. Great blog! I really enjoy reading all the comments.
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June 6th, 2013 at 9:13 pm
Hmm… I’ve gone back and watched many scenes in different episodes where the undercurrents of the feelings between Jane and Lisbon were explored but never quite played out. I used to not want to overthink this and just allow myself to be surprised by what the writers have in store, but I have to say that I am leaning a lot more toward this observation:
I think that Jane is pretty aware of what’s going on between the both of them, even if he’s not made a decision as to what direction he wants the relationship to take on at least for the time being. But it does seem that he has a sense of clarity as to the dynamics of both his and Lisbon’s feelings in terms of what’s involved, what kinds of complications they’re dealing with and why. More than that, I think he’s aware that Lisbon needs to sort these out for herself. But in allowing her to understand her own feelings better, he’s finding out that he’s learning more about himself in the process.
I think that Jane started out as all-knowing and all-confident – it became kinda clear to me in “The Crimson Hat” – when Lisbon asked Jane (almost nervously) what he meant before he shot her. Remember how he evaded the question? I went back to watch the scene again and again… and it occurred to me that he wasn’t just evading; he was gauging what she’s trying to accomplish from asking the qusetion. When he asked her to elaborate what she meant (he asked it with his signature “knowing smile / slightly mischievous smirk”) and she skirted it… he knew then that she still wasn’t ready to broach the subject and so “gave” her reprieve. Who but Lisbon would’ve believed that he could have “forgotten” what just happened? But then again, did Lisbon readily believe it because it gave her an easy way out of the awkwardness? Did you see how quickly she grabbed the explanation up? Almost too quickly, breathing a sigh of relief that the awkwardness was over? Jane is the kind who knows what someone wants and how they’ll react perhaps even before they know it themselves… it seemed clear to me that this was what happened in this case.
Yet, while Lisbon is at the stage of understanding herself and her feelings for Jane, I believe that Jane is finding out that the transition from her being “not yet ready” to “being ready” to discuss the subject perhaps wasn’t as cut and dried as he had thought it would be. For one, we’ve seen how he tends to gravitate toward Femme Fatales, or women who are not only very self-assured, but confident in their own attractiveness, particularly to men. We don’t really know how Angela was like (was there a description of Angela in any episode apart from “Every Rose Has Its Thorn”?), but Kristina, Erica, and Lorelei were all women who “knew” that Jane was interested and attracted to them. I wonder if Jane has ever been close to a woman like Lisbon, who seems often times to indicate no knowledge nor entertain the possibility that Jane could be attracted to her romantically. When Lisbon awkwardly mentioned in “The Crimson Ticket” that it would only be natural for Jane to have feelings for Lorelei as she was the first woman he’s been sexually intimate with since the death of his wife, remember the look Jane gave her? It almost seemed as if he was trying to figure out what were her emotions when she said that – did she feel jealous? Betrayed? Worried? Anxious? Uncertain? All of the above? What are your thoughts? What did the look mean?
Whatever it meant, I think Jane’s own struggle with the undercurrents of emotions became harder rather than easier – by the time they have the conversation in the car in “Red John’s Rules,” he’s no longer as in control and confident as when Lisbon asked him the question in “The Crimson Hat.” There was no sitting back and seeing if she was ready; no knowing smile or slightly mischievous smirk. I think it might be significant that he still allowed her to say her piece first – perhaps wanting to see if she WOULD in fact talk about her feelings; or if she’d talk about the other part of Sean Barlow’s observation – the part about trust. When it seemed clear that she was (of course) going the latter direction, he nip it in the bud and apologized, almost for fear that Lisbon might say that she’s had the final straw where trust is concerned. And I think he knows that Lisbon can take a lot, up till a point when she decides she cannot take anymore. It almost seemed like a realization on his part that when it comes to Lisbon, trust is significant – an area she is willing to explore, even if she’s not as ready to explore her other emotions – but if trust wasn’t maintained, she’s not going to all the other parts. Could it be that this was new territory to him? That with all the other women it was attraction first (most of the time overtly so) and then the rest later? That’s although he’s able to manipulate her pretty easily, she’s also making him work to earn her almost unconditional support?
I don’t know but I think that as Jane is teaching Lisbon the skills of investigation, she’s showing him what it means to have respect for self and others. Perhaps that’s what “be at peace with self” looks like. Could it be that Jane is torn between needing to be in control, and needing to preserve a value he truly admires in general and really cherishes in a partner? Both are equally central ontological needs and both make up his identity. I think the relationship between him and Lisbon forces him to confront, perhaps the first time in his life, the opposing forces of what what he wants his past, present and future to count for.
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June 6th, 2013 at 9:40 pm
@ Canddee: I suppose it depends on when you think the off-screen relationship might have started. Personally, I think it’s unlikely – I can’t imagine Jane would have done all he did with Lorelei if something had been going on with Lisbon, for example (he says he’d do anything to catch RJ, but I don’t think it’s entirely true), nor did Lisbon’s reaction to it all fit that picture. Also, they’ve bantered and bickered right from the start, so… I don’t know. I like stories in which two protagonists find their way to each other by learning about themselves in the process (it’s the basis of most good classics!!) and I’d like to think that that’s what’s happening here.
@ mhudson: Good idea! I’m hoping we go back to Visualise next season, and I’m hoping for some more backstory, so who knows!
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June 7th, 2013 at 2:53 am
@canddee:
“the purist in Baker would like to keep sex out of it, judging from his remarks in an interview that the “sexy vibe” could come from VanPelt/Rigsby.” Do you have a link to this interview?
I wonder why we’re only supposed to get a “sexy vibe” from Van Pelt/ Rigsby? Why can’t we have more than one sexy vibe? There was one between Cho and Summer too.
I have heard very strange things from some of the actors. Robin Tunney said that she hopes there won’t be any sex scenes between her and Baker because she is very good friends with his wife and kids and it would be awkward. First of all, it’s *acting,* and Baker has been intimate with other actresses onscreen (what about Chiriqui? Is that OK because she doesn’t know his wife and kids?) and I am sure his wife can handle it. I’ve seen photos of his kids and they are too young to be watching TM anyway. And here’s Baker saying he wants to keep sex out of the J/L relationship? Seriously? Do these two realize that they are just playing parts, just acting? This strikes me as very bizarre–that maybe the leads are preventing Heller from creating any Jisbon?
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June 7th, 2013 at 4:46 am
Yes, to every single thing you wrote. I know a lot of people have said that they think Lisbon was in love with Jane, but to me his care was much more overt in the small (but important) attention he’d given her. My personal take on Angela (and any other woman that previously attracted Jane) is that while he pretends to be confident, he’s actually very vulnerable hen it comes to relationships. It’s much easier for him to believe that his attractiveness is enough for a woman to fall in love with him than to believe in his own self worth. This is why he falls for strong brazen women; they all approached him first. It’s not just because they were beautiful, but because they made their interest in him obvious. Lisbon, on the other hand, never expressed care beyond what a concerned co-worker/ family member did. She would give him snappy comebacks whenever he tried instigating personal conversations, rejected his flirting, etc. You’re quite right when you say Jane is working very hard for her affection, much harder than many give him credit for. He’s changing. In season one, Jane was very polite and charming with her, but he wasn’t honest. In season three he was secretive at times, brutally honest, to the point of being rude at others, because he was so worried about her. I wasn’t as confident of his intentions at the time but I am %100 now. His sharing the list with Lisbon to gain her trust, knowing how bad a liar she can be, is huge. And all the proof I need. His letting RJ pretend to be dead, letting the investigation go (as far as we had seen) not telling people about it, letting go of his revenge, was to me a sign that he wanted to move on. Possibly for Lisbon. Let’s not forget that she had been shot in S& C. Everything in season four pointed to him moving on (See blood and sand). Even after Panzer died, Jane insisted that it was the work of a copycat, not RJ. This to me means that he wanted RJ gone, at least officially, so that he won’t kill anymore. And this is what I think Jane fears now. Not that RJ will kill *him* but that RJ will kill others. And *that*, Janes fear and depression for other people (Lisbon being at the top of the list) is why I loved the finale.
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June 7th, 2013 at 4:49 am
Lisbon *now* is exactly what Jane described in the video, but she Wasn’t before. Her changing to be what Jane needed her to be (just like he’s done for her) is the strongest proof of her regard 😉
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June 7th, 2013 at 5:01 am
I totally agree. The depths of a person love for a person has nothing to do with the the time required for them to move on. It’s only that people have different perceptions on what the appropriate time is when in reality peoples recovering from grief depends on their personality. Some like to wallow, others are able to pull themselves together much faster. For Jane, Angela was his soul mate, but he met Lisbon a year after her death. And her care towards him (and his apprecation of it) was enough that had it not been for his guilt, I imagine their romance would have taken place much sooner.
…and yes I’m now officially calling their relationship romantic now.
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June 7th, 2013 at 5:06 am
I am loving everybody’s comments tonight. Judging from the wonderful and thoughtful analysis here tonight plus comments I’m seeing on other forums, it seems the TM viewer zeitgeist is changing and everything’s coming up Jisbon! Surely Bruno Heller senses it and knows we are ready.
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June 7th, 2013 at 5:09 am
bravo, reviewbrain! i say well done. this “ship” has sailed! 🙂
mhudson007, i think you hit some good points. i think this goes back to my (and i’m sure others) thoughts that the “active” RJ is a son of suspect or the father is unnamed at this time.
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June 7th, 2013 at 5:13 am
“And this is what I think Jane fears now. Not that RJ will kill *him* but that RJ will kill others. And *that*, Janes fear and depression for other people (Lisbon being at the top of the list) is why I loved the finale”
So true. And, of course, the closeness, unspoken or not, of Jane and Lisbon just highlights this.
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June 7th, 2013 at 5:38 am
@suzjazz…..I found the 2 minute snippet on youtube. It was entitled
simon baker and robin tunney discuss lisbon and jane.
Since I was paraphrasing what I heard, you may get a different jist out of it. I’m pretty sure it was an old interview, but at that point in time it seemed to me that they weren’t leaning much to the romantic. I can imagine that Heller and Baker had absolutely no idea that the fan base would be so huge toward a developing romantic relationship between Baker and Tunney. I would really like to hear their current opinions. I still think they are playing it to satisfy both shippers and non-shippers. For me, I hope they are or will be a couple.
I wish I could find more of the interview on youtube. The five of them were there, plus Heller and one other person, dont know who, and of course the
Interviewer.
Let me know what you think, ok?
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June 7th, 2013 at 8:21 am
@anomalycommenter: Thanx, didn’t have time to rewatch the episodes yet.
Well informants anyway are sort of “undercover” which makes them also different than consultans.
@reviebrain: Agree with everything you said. 😀
@Jinn: Love your thoughts on that, yes indeed he wanted to see her reaction in “TCH” but again I think he was aware before that she would balk out and she proved him right. Especially that we have to consider she’s in total denial before his “love you” that there could be or that she even wants anything romantically happening between them. His “love you” plus the whole Lorelei disaster actually makes her question her feelings throughout S5 and pile up in “TWBB”, when she finalyl discovers her feelings for him.
We actually don’t know anything about Angela (which I think is unsatisfying) I guess her name should indicate that she indeed was the sort of perfect woman -an angel- though I don’t like that, everyone has flaws (Lisbon as well), we don’t even know if Jane and her grew up together or if they met later. I mean was Angela his ‘only’ woman?
Also nice take on which woman he feels attracted to and why, I think this has also to do with the fact they’re like him (con-women, “fakes”) he can deal better with that because nothing’s actually real but with someone like Lisbon he’s on new ground, totally, with her everything is real, something he’s not used to since he’s a kid all he’s ever learned was faking things and to hide his emotions/feelings. And it seems not even Angela managed to change that (though she wanted him to leave the psychic world). And though their deaths make him vulnerable, he still went kind of back to his showman persona when he became comfortable working there (hiding things, pulling his schemes etc.) Lisbon manages over time to break through that barrier because she isn’t anything like that but sees that there is that good boy inside of him who didn’t want to do what his father told/teached him to do.
So Lisbon really is the first woman where his charm/looks don’t get him anywhere, at least at first meeting, she is totally against bringing him along, it’s Minelli who insists on it. And she immediately puts him in his place.
I assume (though I believe he really isn’t that confident when it comes to his own feelings) he’s so accustomed to women falling all over themselves to get his attention that someone like Lisbon arouses his interest right away and over time became more than that because she is everything that he’s looking for (like he said in the video).
@canddee2012: Those interviews are indeed old and I think it’s interesting to see their (especially SB’s) intereies over time. He went from “not gonna happen”, “it might happen”, “you can’t rule the possibility out” to “what do you want to happen”. RT was way longer “against” it but have to agree as much as I love them, I have to roll my eyes when they say things like that, they’re actors it’s their job, if you do a series you should manage a friendship with someone (I firmly believe without actors getting along shows don’t work in the first place) but you have to at least consider that one day you might become a couple on screen.
After the finale RT at least said she wants Lisbon to tell Jane what she feels, so I guess she prepared herself. And before that she also said she wouldn’t count on Heller to care about her social life and she’d keep her breath freash 😉
And what I find interesting about the post finale interviews is that BH said their “underlying feelings” have always been there/explored, I always believed since that “more than words” that BH was going that way.
All in all it looks goog for us shippers 😀
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June 7th, 2013 at 10:17 am
I have always felt that Janes view of Angela was a bit through ‘Rose tinted Specs’ that we all wear when thinking of a loved one who has died.
She may have been a’ sharp tongued harpy who was untidy and couldn’t cook’….. but as time went on his love for her changed that to …’someone who spoke their mind, was endearingly messy and prefered to eat out!’!…I guess he remembers the loveable things about her and has changed those little niggles into being those special things that made her so unique!!…as you say everyone has flaws.
I have just started rewatching the whole series as a way to get through the summer, and in the one where he builds the sandcastle ( sorry can’t remember the title) I was watching closely (looking for RJ clues)…at one point he hypnotises a girl to get evidence…..Lisbon calls him out on it, and at first he denies it…then changes him mind and tells the truth….it was as though he was trying to change even then…sort of trying a new persona on to see if it fit……something he wasn’t used to…..I noticed he kept looking at her, almost for approval.
When you watch them like this in order, you really can see that Jane has changed subtly over time.
I hope that you are right, and it is good news for us.
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June 7th, 2013 at 1:52 pm
Your theories are really good. They made me realize that I am not so silly. I saw the same you did. He has been trying to approach her and figure out her feelings. I really loved your comment. Thank you.
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June 7th, 2013 at 2:40 pm
@phoenixx:
“And what I find interesting about the post finale interviews is that BH said their “underlying feelings” have always been there/explored, I always believed since that “more than words” that BH was going that way.”
God, I hope you are right!!!
My take on BH’s post-finale comment is: *Lisbon’s* feelings are to be further explored (as he says they have been all along) but he says nothing about Jane’s feelings for Lisbon. He seems to be pointedly avoiding any commentary on that. It might be because the fans all know already that Jane loves Lisbon; as you correctly point out (great analysis, btw!) Lisbon was the first woman (probably) not to be blown away by his looks to the extent that she fell for him. She maintained (and still attempts to maintain, but is less successful) strict professional guidelines with him, and only rarely responds to his many attempts to please him: she loves the pony, she is rendered speechless and full of smiles, in fact, but she has a sarcastic quip for his origami frogs, she says she can’t accept the emerald necklace and earrings he got for her that go so wonderfully with her eyes (as he says) She won’t even accept a compliment from him on her appearance (in the scene in which Lisbon is trying on a bridesmaid’s dress for VP’s ill-fated wedding, minutes after she returns from a harrowing experience with a suicide bomb vest, she yells at Jane for not knocking and totally ignores his “Oh my…” She gets even more annoyed when he says that he told VP to ask her to be a bridesmaid because she secretly always wanted to be one (this may or may not be true) and then when he makes the wonderful observation–my favorite line in the series– that she is “an angry little princess–someone stole your tiara,” she doesn’t recognize that his words are affectionate and admiring. She’s clearly not ready to be close to him at this point. But by the end of Season 4, after his “I love you,” she is clearly interested to know what he meant. Of course, he then denies remembering what he said because it’s an uncomfortable and dangerous topic for him (as someone commented on this board.)
Lisbon’s feelings toward Jane have clearly evolved into unmistakable romantic love by the end of Season 5. My problem is, Jane has been so cold and evasive (not to say sarcastic) to Lisbon for most of Season 5 that I fear he no longer loves her. The obsession with RJ has taken him over completely, which is probably the real reason for his detachment. And even though he knows that RJ knows L and J have feelings for each other, he still want to protect her by pretending he doesn’t care about her, especially since the murder of Eileen by RJ and his threat to start killing off people dear to Jane. I’m frankly puzzled that in a decade RJ has never tried to kill Lisbon–his attempt to get Jane to kill her and bring him her head was obviously not serious–he knew that Jane would never do this, and moreover that Jane had no interest in coming over to RJ’s side. I’m still not sure what was really behind RJ’s attempt to “turn” Jane with Lorelei.
Sorry for the length of this post! Sometimes when I get going I just can’t stop!!! 🙂
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June 7th, 2013 at 3:58 pm
I see that Bruno Heller has a new series starting on CBS in the fall. I’m curious: how do you think this might affect our favorite show?
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June 7th, 2013 at 7:37 pm
Thank you all for all the wonderful comments.
I completely agree with phoenixx that it is rather telling how the “powers that be” (producer, directors, writers, actors, etc.) gradually changed their tune over the years in relation to the Jane-Lisbon relationship. Sometimes it sounds like they’re trying to walk a fine balance between managing expectations and keeping to their vision. They started out sort of saying that Jane and Lisbon are like siblings (I was baffled hearing that – not so much for anything but for how absurd it seemed to me given the sparks of chemistry between the leads right from the start)… Looking back, I think it was perhaps meant to temper any expectations that Jane and Lisbon will get hitched any time soon, which is pretty common in TV I guess. I know I was pretty frustrated waiting for that to happen, although I’m glad now that they’ve taken the time to develop the relationship the way they did.
Okay, back to the managing expectations part… they started throwing a lot of a lot of hints in the show and also in interviews about how the relationship was going to go the romantic direction (starting Season 3, possibly earlier, but very clearly since Season 4). Again, I think it seems like they’re orienting those who have always wanted Jane and Lisbon to stay as friends or “siblings” to the possibility that “it’s looking very much like it’s going to happen…” I personally think that it’s a brilliant strategy to not alienate viewers/fans by helping either side of the ship to prepare to confront any possible disappointment in advance…
Please don’t hate me, but I also personally believe that Jane and Lisbon were probably meant to be together right from the start. When I started watching the series and realized that all the titles were themed “Red” I thought then that this entire series was symbolically about Jane’s world. Red is what he sees everywhere… While his whole being is immersed in finding Red John; the irony is that at the same time he couldn’t escape feeling that Red John is just all around him, all-enveloping, and all-consuming. To me the series is therefore about his journey to reconfigure himself in this red, red world, both externally and internally. But what defines Jane? I ask myself, what does the character Patrick Jane brings to mind? I named four things: Mentalist, Red John, Family (Wife + Daughter), and Redemption. Throughout the five seasons, I’ve seen this reconfiguration play out in how he uses his talents (Mentalist); how he decides what to do about Red John (Red John); and I’m sure by the end of the series the other elements that define Jane will play out even more, namely Family and Redemption. Could the destination of his journey be complete without Lisbon? I personally think not. She’s already played a decisive role in his transformations in the “Mentalist” and “Red John” areas. She’ll play an even more pivotal role in the areas of “Family” and “Redemption.” We’ve seen many times how Red John’s minions urged Jane to “find a woman to love, etc.” This doesn’t bode well though, in my mind… because it means that Red John is probably keeping Lisbon for last: what more complete devastation than taking away Jane’s lifesource, one that he’s come to accept depend on after spending years and years trying to heal and rebuild? I think it would probably be even more crushing than perhaps even the death of Angela and his daughter. If he blames himself for their death, just because he spoke about Red John on TV… how much more would he blame himself if Lisbon was taken, because this time, he really COULD HAVE done something concrete (at least in his mind) to avoid that from happening, i.e. walk away.
I think Season 6 will deal a lot about how this journey ends for him. Can’t wait!
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June 7th, 2013 at 7:40 pm
@bonnie, @Violet @phoenixx
Gosh I’m late, there are +170 comments! Real life gets in the way. So many excellent ideas!
Bonnie you asked me why I thought that Lisbon was “nowhere near” to acknowledge her feelings for Jane (something that was discussed by Violet and phoenixx who disagree) and as many things in this show, it is very difficult to grasp any sort of evidence to back up one’s perceptions but perhaps SB has a bit of a clue “…[Patrick] is so secretive and controlling”. I cannot see Lisbon taking the *big* step any time soon. Lisbon has evolved and all that but she is still the daughter of an alcoholic with trust issues. I know that many would perhaps disagree but I do not think she completely trusts Jane and this is a big issue I think. Lorelei propelled the two of them into new territory but that is not to say that she propelled them forward in all aspects of their relationship.
I think reviewbrain (or was it violet?, apologies, I can’t remember!) mentioned that Lisbon is making Jane work hard for her. I think he will have to work even harder. Every time Lorelei came back it was one step forward, one sideways, half step back. I don’t know if I’m explaining myself clearly. It might have served as a catalyst for Lisbon to start realizing her own feelings but she was deeply wounded and the “Lorelei debacle” as I call it, raised quite serious trust issues. So, I liked that reviewbrain called the relationship “a romance” (yay!) but I think J and L have still some way to go.
I hope BH will make Jane work hard for her affection (harder if you like) but I think this is my shipper talking, not the cool-headed mosquito. Season 6 will be full of angst, we could see already a bit of what they’ve got in store with the season 5 finale. Brace yourselves I think it will be their (and our) motto. Perhaps they’ll be both stressed to death (and quite literally, perhaps) and finally address the elephant in the room. After all, as Violet said, they seem to be able to be honest and lovely under quite stressful circumstances. Well, they’ve been served I think!
On a lighter note, I still remember in one of the 1st episodes, Jane was teasing Lisbon and said “Don’t fret, I wouldn’t seduce you over a meal. That’d be very sophomoric”. I’ll give it to him, he made it interesting and has definitely taken his time! LOL.
Anyway, I agree with previous comments: this ship has sailed.
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June 7th, 2013 at 7:45 pm
I agree with you about his vulnerability and low self-worth. He really was approached first, but Kristina, ‘cause of Hightower’s comment, I think. They made their interest obvious and Lisbon in other hand, didn’t want even tell him the musical instrument she used to played (now, I don’t know how, he knows it). He has worked hard for her affection, since the frog (the way he looked at her when she laughed). But, he also feels guilty and thinks he doesn’t deserve start over, all of us know why. He’s also afraid of pain. Erica said him he pushes people away because don’t want feel loss pain. There’s a lyric song here in Brazil by Djavan which says:
“Loving is a desert
And its fears,
Life which going in the saddle
Of these pain”
He knows this desert, too much.
I think he knows now her feelings. But maybe he wants to wait her own time to make some movement. Or SHE must take the first step.
I never thought his letting R J pretend his death like a sign he wanted to move on. Interesting. You’re always seeing more.
I always thought Lisbon was exactly what Jane described in the video even he having said : “she was”. I think he was thinking of Lisbon, but…
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June 7th, 2013 at 8:28 pm
@ Jinn: Add me to the list of people who loved your insightful comment. 🙂 Like RB, Carla and others, I think the idea of him working so hard to earn her trust and affection is just perfect. I suspect he didn’t/doesn’t even realise that that was what he was doing, but it’s always been there – right from the start. The season 1 episode in which they do the trust fall is very telling, in that respect. She tells him flat out that he’s untrustworthy, and he’s hurt by that. It’s so important to him, a trickster, to have the trust of an honest person/woman; it kind of validates him. (I suspect that more than being an angel, this is what Angela did – carny royalty who saw through the small-time faker to the good person underneath). In turn, Lisbon seems a bit taken aback at his subsequent declaration that he’ll always be there for her. She doesn’t seem to have realised the importance he attaches to trust (at that stage she’s probably also assuming that a professional conman can’t possibly be that fussed about it). As you all have said, given his background that is no wonder.
That’s why this episode is so interesting. It’s one of the few times that we see Jane lose trust in himself; he’s unsure – but not afraid to admit it, either. In past RJ cases, he has been supremely confident – almost to the point of self-delusion. I loved Barlow’s description of a “faithless man” in opposition to Lisbon’s faith (and faithfulness), too. She definitely has faith in Jane (she has that sort of strong belief and conviction in things in general), if not always trust. While he has trust (in her as a person), but not necessarily always faith (i.e. I think he lacks belief – belief that he could be a good person, that she could see him as one, that she won’t ruin his chances at getting RJ, etc…). I think her faith and belief in him helps him enormously and keeps him going – I’m reminded of one RJ episode when she says, gently, “We’ll get him next time” or something to that effect. A fascinating dynamic, and one that’s also changing now.
What a lovely story it is; these two people slowly growing towards each other. 🙂
@ Suz & Phoenixx (and others): I feel a bit sorry for Tunney and Baker, I have to say! I know they’re professionals and it’s their job, but outside of that they are also ordinary human beings with a real (clearly very close) relationship of their own and I think it must be terribly hard to switch all that off and separate the two aspects. I think it must be a bit like how it’s sometimes so much easier to tell complete strangers your secrets than it is to tell your friends or family. 😉
@ Carla: I was just thinking today about how you know you’re obsessed with The Mentalist when you start associating the lyrics from practically every song on the radio to aspects of the show. Kind of playing little YouTube-style montages in your head as you go about daily business. Or maybe that’s just me… Ahem.
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June 7th, 2013 at 10:18 pm
Suzjazz: Your last paragraph got me thinking of the romantic genre convention: boy meets girl, boy gets girl, boy loses girl, boy gets girl back. And if you reverse the genders, maybe season 5 was stage three: girl loses boy (through his own coldness and self-absorption). We can hope for girl gets boy back again in season 6.
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June 7th, 2013 at 10:22 pm
Oh wow, I lost track of the time reading the review and everyone’s comments. You guys are fantastic! I think all the really important things have been mentioned already, but I’m still compelled to leave a comment.
After I saw the episode, I was surprised to see some of the names on the list, as I had already eliminated them and didn’t count them as viable suspects: some because they didn’t fit Rosalind Harker’s description and others because they were introduced very late in the series. Didn’t one of the writers suggest in season 4 RJ was like Waldo and we may have already seen him? So I’m not sure what to consider anymore.
Jane told us in this episode these were people who could have all been at Red John murder sites. But why didn’t he mention Rosalind’s description? I’m hoping this happened because the writers felt it would have been too much information for the regular viewer. This is my hope, anyway, that they will address all these things and tie the previous clues they gave us in the past, as season 6 progresses.
Having that said, at this point I don’t know if we can trust the information we have been given in the first seasons. For example, in 1×06, as Jane introduces the audience to his memory palace we hear this:
Jane: My palace is the Midwest carnival circuit I used to travel with my
father.
Lisbon: Your people were carny folk? It’s all starting to make sense.
Jane: Not exactly. Long story.
But in 5×22, we learn Jane’s ancestors were carny:
Jane: Come on Pete, it’s me, we’re family. I mean, how long have the Janes and Turners been travelling together?
Pete: About a hundred years now, probably.
So, what’s the story? Is this a continuity error or is it possible that Jane’s mother wasn’t carny? Could this also be related to Kirkland’s past? Is this even relevant? I hope we learn more about Jane’s past in season 6.
On a different topic, I really like how much this episode reminds me of 3×09 Red Moon:
– Jane saying he has a “feeling” about the case.
– Both feature psychics. In 3×09, Ellis Mars is harmless and almost a comic relief; in 5×22, Sean Barlow manages to upset Jane and Lisbon to the point they need to ask if the other is ok.
– Both feature men seeking revenge. In 3×09, the man turns out to be the serial killer; in 5×22 the man is innocent and just wants to find his daughter. I wonder just how much this mirrors Jane’s transformation. In 3×09 he was blinded by revenge; in 5×22 we get the feeling he just wants to finish this, not so much because he needs revenge, but because it’s the only way he can carry on with his life without endangering the people he loves. His daughter in 5×02 showed us how much he wants all of this to end so he can start a new life.
– In 3×09, Jane tells Johnson that to get revenge he needs to be cold and devious and no one can see what’s in his heart; in 5×22 he shows reluctance (is is secretive and controlling after all), but he lets Lisbon see right through him. This is another clue that revenge isn’t as important to Jane as it once was.
Another thing that struck me in this episode is that we get to see Lisbon holding a baby. Twice. Never, in all these years, we had the chance to see this. So far, it’s always been Jane picking up babies. Now he just looks outside the window, like he is distancing himself from anything that could bring him warmth.
Also, I thought the way he touched Lisbon in this episode also contrasts with his previous hugs. Before, it looked like he hugged Lisbon to seek comfort for himself. Now, as he leads her to watch the disk, he tries to be her source of comfort, to protect her from what she is about to see.
This is, for me, what really changed the rules for Jane in season 5. Not so much RJ’s message, but more the fact that Jane has finally acknowledged Lisbon as his partner and there are consequences to that. I can’t wait to see what they will be in season 6!
/rant
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June 7th, 2013 at 10:29 pm
@suzjazz
“Lisbon was the first woman (probably) not to be blown away by his looks to the extent that she fell for him”
Hmmmmm…true that she did not fall for him but in my opinion, she has always had a crush on him. Which are of course, two different things.
However, the fact that she is a tough nut to crack is part of the charm for him. He met her when he was broken. He has had time to fall in love with her (I think) and she has had the time to get pass her crush. We are finally seeing evidence of that now. Timing is crucial with these two. I don’t think they loved each other from the start. They admire each other in some way and that is a powerful set up for romantic attraction. It has happened gradually.
But I think that what has made the whole difference is that Lisbon is a decent, honest human being. All the others? tricksters, swindlers, manipulators, just like him. Jane recognises Lisbon is the better person and he just couldn’t help but to fall for her. It has always been endearing for me to see how truly good people have a way to creep into Jane’s heart, which is why I haven’t totally lost faith in him.
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June 7th, 2013 at 10:39 pm
Rose, I simply love good songs lyrics and I associate with everything in my life. Always did. Are you like this as well?
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June 7th, 2013 at 11:05 pm
This is my first time posting, although I have been greatly enjoying the reviews and conversations here for a few months. RoseUK mentioned how Jane may not think that Lisbon sees him as a good person, and that made me think that this could be part of why Jane is so upset while Lorelei is reading Red John’s new ‘rules’. When Jane looked at Lisbon during that scene, I thought he looked afraid. Is he afraid that Lisbon will think RJ’s new killings will be Jane’s fault? I’m sure he(Jane) thinks so. Remember when LaRoche asked Jane if Jane thinks he is a monstrosity? I think he’s afraid that Lisbon will think that of him. Of course, she won’t.
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June 7th, 2013 at 11:35 pm
I think Lisbon’s protection against Jane’s good looks and charm has always been the fact that she keeps herself closed off from all genuine emotion. In Red Tide, when Grace tried to sympathize about the victim’s alcoholic father bringing up bad memories for Lisbon, she was told, in no uncertain terms, that they did not discuss personal business on the team. However, in that same episode, when Lisbon reached out to the man, she and Jane exchanged looks that let us know,maven back then, that he was allowed to go places with her that the others couldn’t.
I could tell from the pilot episode that Lisbon had a soft spot for Jane, from the “frog” incident. And much of that could be detected from the looks she gives him. Anyone who is re-watching some of the older episodes, watch Red Flame and see how Lisbon cannot keep her eyes off Jane, almost to the point of distraction. And let me say, what woman could, he is just absolutely gorgeous as well as being charming and playful and very intelleligent. What’s not to love?
Fast forward to season five and It does appear that the more Lisbon realizes her feelings, the more Jane appears to push away from his. But the one thing that Jane has taken pride in is having absolute control over his mind. He doesn’t want to put Lisbon in danger (his words) and so he shuts her out. But when he is vulnerable (Devil’s Cherry), his defenses are down and he admits, through his daughter, that he is both interested in Lisbon AND tired of his obsession with Red John.
It took me until the last episode to realize that Jane’s coldness and detachment was a way to deal with the feelings that he is afraid to show until he finishes the hunt for Red John. Jane is just bone weary and we can only hope that he is seeing the light at the end of the tunnel and that Lisbon will be there waiting for him.
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June 8th, 2013 at 2:00 am
Mosquitoinuk, I thought after Lorelei’s debacle, they would have a big break, but it turned out with a big union between them until the season finale, even with some between them in the way.
She seems, to me, not really far to admit her feelings, she is different, sweeter. People have commented she is not the same badass. And I think if she takes first move, Jane cannot resist. But I’ll love if he has to work harder for her as well. And I can belt who will the brave. Who of you, guys?
Yes, I’m waiting for too much angst, hopefully that this angst makes them face their feelings once for all. Our reward, we deserve it.
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June 8th, 2013 at 6:39 pm
@ Carla: Yes, I’m always seeing stories or pictures in my head when I listen to music (and when something has particularly touched me on TV or in a book, that’s when my mind starts making little YouTube montages to the lyrics). I think it’s because so many shows/films have these emotive songs playing in the background that suddenly everything in life has its own soundtrack! Although I’m in my 30s now – I should really be past all that, lol. 😉
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June 8th, 2013 at 7:19 pm
It’s funny that while Lisbon is the more ostensibly closed off one, Jane too has been a pretty tough nut to crack (to borrow Mosquito’s phrasing!) even before the fear of RJ harming Lisbon caused him to detach further in season 5. Right from the start, he has kept people at arm’s length with the jovial, charming, occasionally jackass-ish aspects of his personality. Lisbon even calls him a “loner” at one point. Does he ever take up Rigsby & Cho’s offer to go for drinks? He almost never mentions his wife or daughter, much less by name. For all his attempts to endear himself to Lisbon, to break through her defences, he rarely lets his guard down in return. Like Lisbon, his troubled upbringing probably caused him to build high walls i.e. his showmanship. I feel like his pre-murder life would also have been pretty solitary – just him and his family in their own little bubble of three. No one else permitted to enter the fortress (my impression). But even though he has recently pulled away from Lisbon, he has simultaneously opened up too (although I’m not entirely sure how that’s happened – by realising he has to give something back – information/trust – presumably for fear of losing her support??). I’m not sure how to explain it, although I think many posters have already commented on it!!! I think Estatica expressed it perfectly by saying that the New Rules also apply to their relationship: they’re going to have to work by a different code now.
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June 8th, 2013 at 9:44 pm
suzjazz says “Lisbon was the first woman (probably) not to be blown away by his (Jane’s) looks.” This got me to thinking. Do Jane’s looks matter to him, except as a means to an end when he was charming women as a psychic? Does he even consider himself to be good looking? I ask because Simon Baker appears to be overly modest, even self-effacing. And Jane seems to be prouder of his memory palace than anything else. I have noticed that his looks very seldom come up as part of the plot, and that’s probably for the best. But there’s not one episode that I am not completely entranced by his beautiful self and it does seem strange that no one mentions it.
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June 8th, 2013 at 10:34 pm
The lack of a reply button on posts is making it difficult for me to respond to individuals–I basically agree with everything being said by various people, and everyone has good insights! Last night I was dining out alone trying to post on my phone, and the wi-fi wasn’t working so my entire post was lost–darn it! I can’t remember the post because I was drinking at the time 🙂 But my response to recent posts is more or less the following:
1) I think someone said that the writers are trying to please both the shippers and the non-shippers. This is impossible–there is no common ground. Either there is a ship or there isn’t. From what I observe, the shippers seem to outnumber the non- by 3 to 1. And even some of the diehard non-shippers will have to admit that the season finale strongly suggests a change in J and L’s current relationship. If it’s the intent of BH and his writers to do nothing but tease us until the bitter end, well, then, a pox on them all! The problem is, they know that most of us will continue to watch the show no matter what they do.
2) Re Lisbon’s crush on Jane: I don’t deny that she had a crush on him from the beginning. When I said she was one of the few women who didn’t fall for him because of his looks and charm, I meant that she was able to keep her head enough so that she was able to be his boss and act in a professional manner (at least until the Lorelei incident) And since Lisbon is damaged from suffering the loss of her mother, the alcoholism and suicide of her father, and having to be a mother to her brothers to the extent that she had no childhood, she is unable to nurture herself because she never learned how. In a strange way, part of her believes she doesn’t deserve to be happy, just as Jane feels about himself. None of her previous relationships with men have worked out and she has responded by being married to her job. Now that she has finally had to confront that it isn’t just a crush she feels for Jane–she was able to handle that–she is very afraid of what will happen next. I don’t know if she was going to talk about this when she told Jane “I can’t work like this” (it’s open to a lot of interpretations) but she certainly needs to have that talk with him, and he’s terrified to have the talk. Two people with self-esteem issues (hate to use that psychojargon, but do we have a better term for it?) who have no one to nurture them, and who could nurture each other if not for…Red John! It will be interesting to see if they have that grown-up conversation [that Rigsby and Van Pelt had] *before* they get Red John. Acknowledging the love they have for each other would make them stronger in a united front against RJ. He knows they love each other, but he also knows they haven’t declared it officially. It could be their way of saying, “We’re not afraid of you, Red John.” Problem is, I don’t think Lisbon is afraid of RJ, but Jane is terrified.
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June 8th, 2013 at 10:47 pm
Hmm… If you were referring to my post suzjazz, I’d like to clarify that I wasn’t saying that the writers were trying to please both shippers and non-shippers… what I meant to say was that I see them trying to prepare them for what’s going to happen depending on the direction they were taking a specific juncture of the show. For example in the early stages when they were not going to really develop any romantic theme between Jane and Lisbon they threw in hints about that so that those who were anticipating any sort of romantic developments would not get too disappointed with the “lack of” any clear romantic themes… What I see happening now is the opposite of that happening.. I’m seeing a lot of hints thrown in about how they are going to go the romantic direction now and so non-shippers would be sort of prepared for that happening when it does happen.
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June 8th, 2013 at 10:55 pm
You were perfect, Estatica. Good points.
“Jane: My palace is the Midwest carnival circuit I used to travel with my
father.
Lisbon: Your people were carnie folk? It’s all starting to make sense.
Jane: Not exactly. “Long story.”
Maybe Jane was ashamed and lied.
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June 8th, 2013 at 11:05 pm
Rose, it’s the same with me. Life should be narrated by songs with beautiful lyrics. I my mind I put it in everything. I always did and I will forever.
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June 8th, 2013 at 11:40 pm
Teresa thinks she has to be mother of everyone, including Jane, she has care about everyone happiness before hers. It was so since her childhood. She carries the weight of the world; she can’t think of herself and doesn’t think of the consequences for others. She is too much responsible, altruistic. But she is also the stronger of the two. I think if it is necessary, she will take charge in the development the relationship of them.
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June 9th, 2013 at 12:31 am
Hi there :DD
This was a great review of another great episode..
Very insightful information. Thanks for taking the time to write it.
Great art work as well !!! by Chibi !!!
:-DD
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June 9th, 2013 at 3:53 am
@Rose UK:
“Yes, I’m always seeing stories or pictures in my head when I listen to music (and when something has particularly touched me on TV or in a book, that’s when my mind starts making little YouTube montages to the lyrics). I think it’s because so many shows/films have these emotive songs playing in the background that suddenly everything in life has its own soundtrack! Although I’m in my 30s now – I should really be past all that, lol. ;)”
Rose, you should never be past that. Life *does* have its own soundtrack. I am a musician and a composer and I have recognized this since the age of 7 when I would compose movie themes in my head. I have actually written film scores, so I am hyper-aware of the importance of music in TV and films. It is the sign of a sensitive and creative person that you mind creates musical montages. This is something we never outgrow (just like romance.) I am 60 and I have not let it go. 🙂
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June 9th, 2013 at 4:03 am
@Carla:
“And I think if she takes first move, Jane cannot resist. But I’ll love if he has to work harder for her as well. And I can belt who will the brave… Yes, I’m waiting for too much angst, hopefully that this angst makes them face their feelings once for all. Our reward, we deserve it.”
Although I regret that Lisbon is no longer the badass she used to be, perhaps it is good that she is showing her gentler side to Jane. I hadn’t thought about her making the first move–that would be interesting! Lisbon is about as fearless as can be when it comes to criminals–but would she be brave enough to kiss Jane and risk rejection?
I do agree with you, we deserve to see them face their feelings for once and all, even if it means a huge fight. I am not happy with what we were given in season 5. There has to be angst in season 6.
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June 9th, 2013 at 4:41 am
Thank you, Reviewbrain and Violet. This is the very best Mentalist blog. I come here for in-depth, intelligent discussions about a show I love and I don’t have to worry about the mean-spirited comments you get on some of the other forums.
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June 9th, 2013 at 8:42 am
a few comments. funny how this comments section kind of exploded — i do so wonder why? 🙂
1) regarding Jane’s comment to Lisbon about carnie life — I wouldn’t put too fine a point on it. It’s clear (to me at least) that the Jane’s were doing work in and out of the true carnival — such as the con with the girl in the wheelchair. And he may have been referring to whatever happened between his father and Sean Barlow. It was probably just an ambiguous line at the time.
2) The same with comments from Heller, Baker, or Tunney. Heller is never going to give up the game — that’s what showrunners explicity do not do. Baker and Tunney (though Baker to a lesser extent since he is getting a producer credit) are along for the ride. And, still, they are not supposed to be out there essentially spoiling the ride for everyone else.
3) I find it interesting that so many are accusing Jane of being an ass this season — I don’t quite see it as such. I see intense jealousy (along with some professional concern) whenever from Lisbon whenever Lorelei shows up. i see Jane struggling with how much to read Lisbon in on what he knows — coupled with actually doing the heavy lifting of figuring out what’s what with RJ.
4) Tunney referred to it in an interview, but the whole Volker arc allowed Jane to show that he was really there for Lisbon. I don’t think that can be understated.
5) i agree with RB and others that the beginnings of the “real” ship was sometime in season 3, though it is well noted by others than Lisbon has shown interest in Jane from essentially the very beginning.
6) in any event, it’s going to get bumpy in S6, on all fronts.
7) Violet, nice work on the “two pictures” question I posed, but I’m still not sure we’ve uncovered everything there. Much like the phone number on the wall, I feel those two pictures are a “neon sign” of sorts, but I don’t know what the sign says.
8) As far as the idea that Jane has lost interest in Lisbon during S5, I just don’t think that is the case at all. I have to think that Jane has been playing a long game with Lisbon on the relationship side for a little while.
A lot of very good discussion from the regulars and a very nice debut from Jinn — well done.
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June 9th, 2013 at 12:25 pm
C Hill, That’s a relief what you wrote: “I find it interesting that so many are accusing Jane of being an ass this season — I don’t quite see it as such. I see intense jealousy (along with some professional concern) whenever from Lisbon whenever Lorelei shows up. I see Jane struggling with how much to read Lisbon in on what he knows — coupled with actually doing the heavy lifting of figuring out what’s what with RJ.”
I think the same, now, of course, ‘cause in first moment, I did chorus with who wanted to punch him, mainly when had no consequences in the very next episode. But pushing away the warmth of the time, I could see he was only trying figure out RJ’s ID, but he was concerned in keep their good partnership. He listened to her, did what she asked. And I think that, in the end, they understood each other, everything was very very very good. The two show up singing on a crime scene and are closer together than ever, talking even with a look. he even knows which musical instrument she used play.
It didn’t have lost interest from him by her, quite the contrary. He wants to finish this RJ’s stuff soon. He’s just tired.
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June 9th, 2013 at 12:32 pm
You are right,Vatentine, it’s hard don’t notice his beautiful self. I can’t help notice that, ever.
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June 9th, 2013 at 2:17 pm
thanks for the kind words, Carla.
i guess my thoughts are that i thought S5 was written well. there were only a couple of episodes i didn’t really enjoy and i thought several were exceptional, including the finale.
i thought the writers did a good job of working with the characters and their situation: we had Jane disappearing for six months, returning with a “love you” for Lisbon, having a “relationship” with Lorelei, Jane’s continued struggles with exacting revenge but wanting to move on with his life. and not only was Lorelei a romantic rival, but she also started stepping into Lisbon and Jane’s working relationship. and while we saw little snippets of jealousy regarding Jane’s potential romantic interest in Lorelei, we saw downright anger when ane seemingly was taking Lorelei in as a working partner.
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June 9th, 2013 at 2:33 pm
a few other things i forgot.
1) did anyone else think the shot of Sean Barlow outside of his office as Jane and Lisbon approached was a sign that he knew they were
coming? it sure seemed that way to me.
2) clearly, and i believe others have touched on, it’s the “where” Barlow got his information to use on his cold reading of Lisbon that’s important. and how does that where (Visualize, FBI files, CBI files, etc.) tie into RJ’s “cold reading” of Jane regarding LiLi Barlow.
3) i wonder what part Cho will play in this. i can’t imagine that his reading “A Tale of Two Cities” was not just because the book was laying around the set. he’s also exceptionally observant of human interaction and can tell when folks are lying. he’s also been willing to go along with whatever scheme Jane cooks up.
4) For those that mentioned Lorelei’s bruised left eye, I wondered the same thing — when did that happen and why wasn’t it there at her posed murder scene? Sure, makeup can cover things but one has to wonder if it is a simple continuity error or another interesting clue.
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June 9th, 2013 at 3:11 pm
But was hard listen to: “I trust her”, “maybe I have some feelings”. But, also, we put ourselves on Lisbon’s place (I was the first) and none, on the Jane’s. He just want finish this, only. Thank you, C Hill.
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June 9th, 2013 at 11:41 pm
agreed, Carla. and we see in Lisbon’s reaction(s) how much it stings.
one thing that occurred to me is that in “there will be blood”, while Lisbon and Jane’s relationship hits its low, the excitement in the chase for RJ perhaps is near its peak.
then, just 6 installments later, at the end of RJR, we see the chase for RJ hitting a low (perhaps not the very bottom, but it’s very depressing), while the relationship between Jane and Lisbon, both professionally and personally, is reaching new highs.
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June 10th, 2013 at 1:20 am
Do you think Jane would have told Lisbon the other names on the list if not for the DVD? And does Jane just carry the pics around with him? Speaking of the list it might just be me but Lisbon looked most surprised that Haffner was on it. It also looked like Jane was seeing how she would react to it. Maybe I’m just over thinking it.
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June 10th, 2013 at 1:26 am
@Carla: Yes, those words from Jane were the most difficult to hear–I strongly identify with Lisbon, and felt her rage at hearing that Jane trusts Lorelei but (implied) not her; and to hear that “there were some feelings” for Lorelei must have been unbearable. (Though I personally think that Jane only said that because when he denied it at first she accused him of lying) Jane has often felt cornered by Lisbon, who insists on complete honesty. He can’t be completely honest, both because of his nature and training as a con artist and because he feels he has to only tell her 30% of what he does so that she will have deniability and thus not get into trouble with her superiors. (Though he has made her an unwilling accessory to Lorelei’s escape from prison.) Also to protect her from RJ. Jane is hard for me to read (not being a mentalist myself) But there is no doubt that he has shown her that he trusts her now and accepted her fully as his partner, sharing info about RJ and about his own past only with her. This has to be a good sign. 🙂
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June 10th, 2013 at 2:55 am
i agree with much of what you say, suzjazz, but as a minority here 🙂 i feel compelled to give Jane a little support.
as far as this:
” and felt her rage at hearing that Jane trusts Lorelei but (implied) not her”
i don’t think that’s what was actually happening — i think it was Lisbon in a state of disbelief that he would trust anything Lorelei had to say. and especially compared to the rock solid Lisbon.
i think that any support/feelings/trust Jane showed Lorelei was completely separate from his relationship with Lisbon — in Jane’s mind. though it’s easy to understand how this would get lost in translation to Lisbon — especially if one wants to factor in any hidden/rising feelings she has for Jane.
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June 10th, 2013 at 6:50 am
I just recently watched the Pilot again plus deleted scenes and I think in terms of who had a crush on whom I think the DS from the Pilot is very interesting. You know the one where Jane leaves the van after Lisbon reads him and then he’s angry with himself. In that scene Lisbon though accurate is pretty mean and after she tells him he’s an egomaniac and that she’s scared of him that one day he’ll create a mother of a tragedy (and she wants to be nowhere near when that happens) Jane wants to get out right away and like mentioned is angry with himself. BTW if you look at his face when she pretty much insults him he’s smiling but it’s a nervous smile because he knows she’s right and he averts his eyes from her gaze.
There’s this discussion about how Jane is seeking Lisbon’s approval and attention and I think though deleted that scene showed this very well.
Sure since it was deleted we shouldn’t consider it but somehow I feel they shoul’ve left it in.
@ mosquitoinuk: I agree, BH should make Jane work hard for Lisbon’s affection.
Which brings me the point in other comments about who should be the initiator of their first kiss or anything at all.
I somehow would love for it to be Jane because he should be the one like I said working hard to get it but then again Lisbon is the straightshooter and somehow I want it to be her to take him completely off-guard (and shut him up for example) So far she’s the brave one and I’d like her to be that in their romance (yay!) too. Also he knows how to seduce (start something) if neccesary whereas Lisbon seems to be the one more shy about it at least in Jane’s mind, so that would be quite a shocker for him and I think I’d like to see that. LOL
In danger of sounding a bit soapy here but I’d love Lisbon in order to get her feelings right to think she should date some “normal” guy, you know like thinking “maybe I have feelings for Jane because he’s the only guy around me for a while” which of course should cause Jane jealousy for once (or get Mashburn back) 😉 And when Jane’s jealous and they end up in a heated discussion about a case (Mashburn being again a suspect LOL) she ends up kissing him. – Ignore that it’s just my fantasy going nuts….
@suzjazz and C Hill: LOL I was so angry with Jane, yes I felt even rage when he said he trusts Lorelei, honestly that for me was the worst part not even the fact he would only tell Lisbon 30% etc. but the trust thing, geez I really wanted to slap him hard.
And I get Jane was already in his RJ mind mode but to say he trusts Lorelei no matter on what wasn’t only ridiculous but he should’ve known it would be like a slap in Lisbon’s face, he’s the mentalist for gods sakes and he knows Lisbon, that’s no excuse for me.
About the “I have feelings for her”, I know that’s been discussed multiple times but not only given SB interview before the episode, it’s clear for me that that again also was Jane telling Lisbon only 30%, yes he has feelings but they’re sympathy/kindred spirit like and not what Lisbon thinks who is obviously clouded by her feelings for him. And that served him for keeping Lisbon at arms lenght which he tried to do all season long but at the end always messes up because he can’t stay away especially when she’s in danger (Volker).
Someone mentioned how Jane’s speech with the love doctor could be interpreted as him talking about himself and Lisbon/Lorelei and I think that’s spot on. Jane didn’t realize how hurt Lisbon really was until ‘TWBB’ which also supports my theory of Jane not being aware of Lisbon’s feelings for him until their emotional talk at ‘Orchid lane’.
Only from then on he became more attentive except maybe that little balcony scene in ‘BtRC’ but that was out of frustration.
And as I mentioned in the “RAI” review, knowing the person has feelings for you too makes it way harder to stay away than thinking there couldn’t possibly be a future together anyway. So from TWBB on Jane’s even in bigger emotional trouble than before, while he tried to keep her away before after her “admission” he sees the possibilty but at the same time or short after loses his biggest lead on RJ which spirals him back into desperation of sorts. We’re already aware since “DC” that he’s tired of the RJ game and wants to move on but the moment he learns the feelings are mutual he also has to learn he himself has damaged this relationship to a great extend.
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June 10th, 2013 at 9:16 am
“Jane only said that because when he denied it at first she accused him of lying”. I think the same, since the start but it is hard because she might have believed. But also he didn’t want Lorelei to be arrested. He had to omit Orchid Lane, I think, ‘cause of deniability’s sake.
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June 10th, 2013 at 9:59 am
Ooh, I’m losing the thread of who said what now, so apologies in advance for stepping on anyone’s toes!
I suppose that part of Lisbon’s reactions come from the fact that she too needs to be needed (albeit to a lesser degree, as she is largely very self-sufficient). We’ve spoken a lot about Jane’s need for approval, but less about her needs from him specifically (i.e. whereas Jane needs to be seen as the smartest person in the room by all and sundry, Lisbon seems to require very little if anything from the people around her. Hence the ‘at peace’ description. Only when it comes to Jane does she display some kind of vulnerability…). Remember that episode in season 4 (Cheap Burgundy – love that one) when Jane goes off with Darcy, then calls Lisbon up right at the end for help. She says “Jane needs me” with real pleasure (bit of smugness?) and then *immediately* ditches poor Van Pelt! I think that’s what freed her up enough to say “miss you too” quite openly (without any eye-rolling) a bit later on – because she felt confident in his regard for her. Contrast that with the time Jane casually remarks “I need her” on the Erica Flynn case and her stomping off. So perhaps alongside the trust issue (obviously extremely important to her), there has also been an aspect of wanting to be needed – as a friend, a partner, maybe also to be considered a good detective by such a clever man (as Jane is constantly outshining the team).
@ Suz. Oh good, thank you. I will continue walking around supermarkets with my head in the musical clouds, then. 😉
@ C Hill: I was desperately scanning the Venice Beach (?) background to see if I could spot any clues! Came up with zero… Agree re: Cho. He is quite the mentalist himself! So in response to question of ‘who’ll make the first move’, maybe he’ll be the one to knock J and L’s heads together.
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June 10th, 2013 at 11:48 am
@Reader22: Sur Lisbon was surprised by Haffner and later Partridge/Kirkland they’re the people she works with and knows the longest. I guess when Jane said she couldn’t tell anyone within the CBI she thought it was just because of Bertram (after he tells her) but then she has to learn that two other suspects are CBI employees as well which is also the reason Jane watches her so intently then, he knows those names shake her the most.
I think Jane got himself the photos since they’re the last ones on his list and obviously the effect for the audience is the best when Lisbon displays them on the Laptop.
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June 10th, 2013 at 2:50 pm
Tunney said in an interview when she shot that scene she didn’t know any of the names when they shot the reveal (though I would find it tough to shoot that scene before finishing all of the others) so that they would get a raw acting response.
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June 10th, 2013 at 2:51 pm
@phoenixx: Interesting about the deleted scenes! I wonder if they were only cut because they could not fit everything in and had to make some choices. I would love to see those scenes. I also noticed in the 100th episode that shows Jane when he first came to the CBI that Lisbon alternates between being wary of Jane and compassionate for his suffering. There is a scene in which he leaves the bullpen and he says musing to himself, “Teresa is a lovely name.” I may be in the minority but I believe that Jane’s crush started then, well before Lisbon’s. It may after all be intentional on the part of the writers to create such an incredibly slow progression of their feelings for each other spread out over 5 seasons.
Re Mashburn: I read a fanfic yesterday (yes, I admit it’s one of my guilty pleasures!) in which Lisbon and Jane have a huge fight when he gets drunk, and she takes her accumulated vacation time (which we know must be months, lol!) and decides to go to Europe with Mashburn! It was a very credible plot line and fun to read. Interestingly, in the story, Jane and Mashburn are friendly to one another; Mashburn is portrayed as not in love with Lisbon, merely fascinated and attracted by her. Needless to say, Jane learns to appreciate Lisbon more through jealousy. I am not a Mashburn fan (I find him incredibly annoying, but maybe that’s because I am loyal to Jane in spite of his faults) but bringing him back next season would certainly liven things up!
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June 10th, 2013 at 3:24 pm
Simply perfect, Phoenixx! I wouldn’t speak better. Thank you.
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June 10th, 2013 at 5:06 pm
Ok, on an entirely unrelated note – and straying into conspiracy theory territory while I’m at it:
http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/the-mentalist/images/27862406/title/team-photo
I was just having a look through images for my desktop, and this early promo pic captured my attention because it plays on the mirroring theme that we keep mentioning. Lisbon, VP & Cho all have mirror images; Rigsby has a shadow (I think)… Jane has NADA! I think this was in the days when the “Jane is RJ” theory was most prevalent, though (which I do not subscribe to at all, btw).
Sorry, I know that has nothing to do with anything but I thought it was fun to comment on nonetheless. 😉
PS Do we think that Volker might return? That arc ended so suddenly that I felt like it couldn’t possibly be finished with.
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June 10th, 2013 at 5:08 pm
Beg your pardon; it’s Lisbon’s shadow!
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June 10th, 2013 at 5:16 pm
The theory on Lisbon’s Crush on Jane from s1 onwards is interesting with some great agruments to support this. Although I remembering reading a s5 interview with RT and she said this season Lisbon is just discovering feelings for Jane. I think before Jane’s ” love you” Lisbon wasn’t in state of harbouring romantic feelings towards her partner, before that it felt like a colleague/friend releationship. Unless of course there is some other kind of crush (what othe kind is there?) then I stand corrected.
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June 10th, 2013 at 5:31 pm
Rose: Oh, need to expand my wish-list. I definitely want Volker back also! The story was built so well but the ending was so disappointing and way too sudden.
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June 10th, 2013 at 5:53 pm
i’m trying to wait for violets s5 wrapup/s6 lookahead before getting too crazy about wish lists, but i do holp volker is back in some form or another. he seems like a character who could employ RJ as an enforcer, though i’m not sure who on the list would fit that kind of position.
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June 10th, 2013 at 5:53 pm
Valentine0214 wrote:
“suzjazz says “Lisbon was the first woman (probably) not to be blown away by his (Jane’s) looks.” This got me to thinking. Do Jane’s looks matter to him, except as a means to an end when he was charming women as a psychic? Does he even consider himself to be good looking? I ask because Simon Baker appears to be overly modest, even self-effacing. And Jane seems to be prouder of his memory palace than anything else. I have noticed that his looks very seldom come up as part of the plot, and that’s probably for the best. But there’s not one episode that I am not completely entranced by his beautiful self and it does seem strange that no one mentions it.”
To be fair, it is sometimes mentioned, in S3 (the flirting nurses in ‘Blood For Blood’) and more importantly during season 4: in ‘Red is the New Black’, by Glenda in ‘Ruby Slippers’ (“Oh my. He stops my heart every time.”) or in ‘Ruddy Cheeks’ (a patient told him “Thank you, handsome”). In the latter cases, it was probably meant to prepare us viewers for the season finale by “sexualizing” him, respectively before his kiss with Erica (two episodes after ‘Red is the New Black’) and before he got his first lover after his wife. Indeed, the thing is they don’t really need to use Jane’s looks plot-wise: the man hardly uses seduction to get what he wants, he tends to prefer manipulation/suggestion (except in ‘Fugue in Red’ of course)… As you said, he seems “prouder” of his skills than of his looks. That’s pretty telling about his character because he doesn’t really put himself forward as a man -in fact the very few times he mentioned the distinction between men and women within the team were mostly in S1 (the bet about seducing the widow and the professional lover/gigolo episode). He only seems to use the effect he has on women in a handful of occasions: when he went undercover with Grace to play the part of the older man who seduced his student (even though his act would have worked with a less attractive man too, because he wasn’t really putting enphasis on his looks), when he used the secretary’s attraction to him to stole her keys in ‘Black Cherry’. Or when he wanted to thank Hightower by kissing her on the cheek. Every time, his looks were a mean to an end as you said.
I wonder if that’s not related to the guilt he feels towards his late wife: he might feel like he failed her as a man, hence his reluctance to present himself that way. It’s far easier to deal with people and to distance yourself when you pretend to be an almost asexual harmless consultant than an available and attractive widower… Thus he plays it down. Of course, that doesn’t mean he’s not a very secure man, since he doesn’t mind being mistaken as gay. I think that from his point of view, that’s just not the most valuable (or/and useful) part of his character.
C Hillwrote:
“1) regarding Jane’s comment to Lisbon about carnie life — I wouldn’t put too fine a point on it. It’s clear (to me at least) that the Jane’s were doing work in and out of the true carnival — such as the con with the girl in the wheelchair. And he may have been referring to whatever happened between his father and Sean Barlow. It was probably just an ambiguous line at the time.”
Yes, that or he didn’t want to share something about himself at the time, either because he was a bit ashamed of it (he had tried very hard to erase his carnie past with Angela, or so i seems: the piano lessons for thei daughter vs his father teaching him the art of conning people, the huge classy house vs the trailer, the flashy suits vs the scout-like outfit he was wearing when he worked with his father… it’s also interesting that he was delighted to be in a highschool atmosphere both in ‘Rose-Colored Glasses’ and in ‘Something’s Rotten in Redmund’, he seems to have longed for such an experience when he was younger); or because he was embarrassed to let Lisbon in a part of his past, given that at the time Danny’s interference was putting him under a bad light: it enlightened his con artist past, even his brother-in-law was part of it and his long-lost friends wouldn’t talk to a police officer… that’s pretty embarrassing for a CBI consultant I think… hence the half-truth about not really being a carnie, which might be labelled as damage control. It’s also interesting that at the time he was trying to distance himself from Lisbon and the team: not telling her about his background is a way to keep things from getting overly personal too…
“7) Violet, nice work on the “two pictures” question I posed, but I’m still not sure we’ve uncovered everything there. Much like the phone number on the wall, I feel those two pictures are a “neon sign” of sorts, but I don’t know what the sign says.”
Yes, I agree, there has to be something more to it. Any ideas, anyone? 😉
(Sorry for my belated comment! 😛 Life got in the way… And sorry if I’m repeating what someone else already said: there’s a *huge* number of comments! I need to catch up and I’m in a hurry… :))
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June 10th, 2013 at 6:22 pm
When JJ LaRoche mentioned Volker in “Red and Itchy”, it made me think that we weren’t quite finished with him. Otherwise, why bring him up?
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June 11th, 2013 at 12:10 am
@RoseUK — i’ve looked at that crowd scene more than once, too. i also noticed that an actor got an uncredited “crowd scene” for RJR (and for a “downscale” character in RVC). Probably not a big deal but… The actor is named “M@tch” of all things. I think he was one of the guys moving furniture while VP and Rigs we having there in car talk before the chase in RVC. I don’t think there’s much to this.
however, i did notice (beyond my paranoia of who the officer outside of the room in the initial crime scene in RJR was and had we seen her before) that the actress who is the receptionist at the children’s home in RJR was also the diner waitress in “Cheap Burgundy”. and we note that when Jane enters the home, he never looks directly at the receptionist.
coincidence? she is married/in a relationship with one of the writers? or does Jane recognize her and she was put in place by RJ, Kirkland, or someone else? i’m going with #2 since she hasn’t been in much other than TM lately, but it’s a little surprising and there aren’t many coincidences on The Mentalist. (and, of course, both eps were written by Heller)
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June 11th, 2013 at 6:57 am
Don’t kow if that meant something but Jimmy Gadd mentioned to someone tweeting him: “Did Jane sound ticked when he talked about Volker?” Jimmy answered: “Maybe, you’ll have to see 😉 ”
No idea if he was talking about the episode and the Brenda thing or if he was reffering to S6. (He live tweeted but don’t know if that tweet came one later)
I would love for Volker to come back, they never had a real prisson break with someone they’ve put there, especially not that dangerous (and maybe he really does have a link to RJ) After all Kirkland warned Lisbon at the beginning to stay away from Volker but then for some reason Kirkland wasn’t around for the rest of this story arc.
Concerning “does Jane think he has good looks or not”, well I guess to a certain extend he does know, in the buiseness he was in looks count just as much as charm. Even if Jane is more proud obviously of his mental skills, he knows that people react more possitive to someone attractive.
Hence the suit as well, he uses it as an armor but it also helped to polish his looks a bit. So I think he is aware that women not only fall for his charm but that his looks play a role too.
And for the whole crush-discussion, I will take BH at his word here and believe that Lisbon only discovered her feelings now and before it was friend/sister at times even motherly concern, although her actions and behavior convey more sometimes, I mean discovering doesn’t mean they haven’t been there all along, no one just recognizes he’s falling in love with someone all of a sudden just because that person told you he loves you and then took it back. Same goes for Jane, yes he wanted/needed her help in the early seasons while trying to keep the team at bay but a lot of the things he’s done for her were a bit much for just being a friend or keeping that person just close enough, like the pony, seriously he fulfilled one of her childhood dreams just because. And even being an egomaniac to be seaking for Lisbons admiration though he didn’t want the team close speaks volumes about how much she already meant to him during S1 (which supports he actions in the finale when he gives up his best lead in order to protect Lisbon).
To everyone who talked about listening to songs and immediately thinking about Jane/Lisbon, count me in. It became an obsession of mine, the moment a songs comes up and the lyrics fit I go: “Aww..that’s so Jisbon” LOL
@suzjazz: I guess the fact they made the “First contact” episode in S5 changed many things, it’s probably save to say it would’ve looked different if it really had been the first episode.
In “Red Dawn” Jane/Lisbon looked as if it really was a deep connection between them right from the start but when I think about S1 (which approx. was their 3th year of working together) they still were pretty unfamiliar.
BTW do we have something like a timeline?
I read a comment on YT where someone said in S1 they’d be working together for the 4/5th year but I don’t think that makes sense. Lisbon in S5 is workíng with the CBI for 10 years, Jane joins them what two? years after his wife and daughter are murdered, that would make them working together for 8 years now and S1 would be the 3th (if we count every season as 1 year). Which also would mean Lisbon joined the CBI in the year his family was killed.
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June 11th, 2013 at 1:56 pm
To Rose UK regarding photo link: what is Cho holding in his hand? a camera. That would allude to another “double image” in the composition. Also, what are the two items in the floor in the foreground? they look like an ice bucket and ice cubes plus a small stand? What is the significance of the over turned items? Jane is the only one without a doppleganger in the photo. He stands alone? You can’t see his back (hinting at something hidden behind him? Quite the interesting picture. Would love to hear others’ interpretation.
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June 11th, 2013 at 2:02 pm
I don’t see Rigsby’s doppleganger. Am I missing something?
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June 11th, 2013 at 2:11 pm
III Frogs, I thought the shadow was Rigsby’s. No?
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June 11th, 2013 at 2:13 pm
Phoenixx: In the pilot, the flashback to Jane’s appearance on the TV talk show is captioned: Five Years Earlier
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June 11th, 2013 at 2:15 pm
Okay, Lou Ann, I do see the shadow. At first it seems a little short, but the lighting appears to be from overhead, judging by the shadow of Jane’s foot, so it’s a little foreshortened. It is a very odd photograph!
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June 11th, 2013 at 2:48 pm
Hi Lou Ann. I thought the camera was to depict the element of crime scene photography, but as for the other items I’m not really sure! I kind of glossed over them as some sort of arty stylistic choice that may not have been supposed to mean much/anything. If indeed any of it is supposed to mean anything. 😉 (We could get into a whole ‘nother discussion on what art means to the viewer in general, but that’s for another forum…!)
Hi Phoenixx. Oh, that bloomin’ timeline. I find it best to ignore it entirely – makes the suspension of disbelief (which, in me, is usually enormous) much easier. 😉
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June 11th, 2013 at 3:48 pm
About that “odd” picture, Rose wrote: “this early promo pic captured my attention because it plays on the mirroring theme that we keep mentioning. Lisbon, VP & Cho all have mirror images; Rigsby has a shadow (I think)… Jane has NADA! I think this was in the days when the “Jane is RJ” theory was most prevalent, though (which I do not subscribe to at all, btw).”
And Lou Ann wrote: “what is Cho holding in his hand? a camera. That would allude to another “double image” in the composition. Also, what are the two items in the floor in the foreground? they look like an ice bucket and ice cubes plus a small stand? What is the significance of the over turned items? Jane is the only one without a doppleganger in the photo. He stands alone? You can’t see his back (hinting at something hidden behind him? Quite the interesting picture. Would love to hear others’ interpretation.”
I agree with Rose, the “camera was to depict the element of crime scene photography” because the whole setting alludes to a crime scene, I think: the ice bucket must have been thrown on the floor when the implied murder has been committed (it hints at violence). So, the team is doing what they usually do together: they’re investigating. The amusing part is that Van Pelt and Rigsby are only seen in the mirror reflection (twice for Van Pelt who is looking in the mirror while supposedly searching for clues), because they are on the other side of the room… still, Rigsby is looking at us, like Lisbon, the inscrutable Cho and Jane. Why? Because *we* are at the center of the room, near the ice bucket. Thus, we’re the corpse…
Beside, everything adds an air of mystery to the scene: the grey/black colors, the mirrors and the reflections, the fact that half of Lisbon’s and Cho’s body are out of the picture, alluding to the fact that the show belongs to the mystery genre. It even adds a bit of a “film noir” atmosphere (the grey couch, the mini-bar Van Pelt is standing in front of, the stylish and a bit old fashioned ice bucket). And it enlightens Jane’s position, under the spotlight, at the center of the picture, at the center of the couch and without reflection. His presence is enhanced by the fact that, unlike the others, he’s very relaxed: he doesn’t wear any jacket, his sleeves are rolled up and his arm is resting on the back of the couch, he’s assuming the attitude he usually has in the bullpen. He’s the Jane we know, whereas the others act as professional investigators: it enlightens that he’s the protagonist, that he has a carefree vibe to him, yet also that he’s literally at the center of the action. It hints that he’s a manipulator, because everything revolves around him: he’s pulling the strings without even moving from his sitting position.
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June 11th, 2013 at 4:10 pm
Lo-o-o-ove it, Violet!
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June 11th, 2013 at 4:19 pm
PS You’ve mentioned film noir before as regards various aspects of the mystery genre and TM, I think: Jane’s car, the similarities of TM to traditional/classic mystery or cop shows (Columbo? Agatha Christie?), aspects in the episode Red Sails (the Hitchcock movie playing in the scene with Stiles) and Behind the Red Curtain (didn’t someone say the lighting in the end scene was very Hitchcockian? …. I suppose there’s also the idea of surveillance/voyeurism that posters have touched on, also present in Hitchcock movies)…Oh, plus that early episode where Jane wears a hat in disguise when he’s getting someone beaten up… It’s a clever conceit/thread of the show (however infrequently we see it), and not one that I had ever noticed before all you clever commenters!!
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June 11th, 2013 at 5:01 pm
Glad to be of some help, Rose! 😀
By the way, forgot to mention that the looming threat that is RJ is represented by the big dark archway opening behind Rigsby, in contrast with Jane’s blond head and white shirt…
@Phoenixx wrote “Concerning “does Jane think he has good looks or not”, well I guess to a certain extend he does know, in the buiseness he was in looks count just as much as charm. Even if Jane is more proud obviously of his mental skills, he knows that people react more possitive to someone attractive.
Hence the suit as well, he uses it as an armor but it also helped to polish his looks a bit. So I think he is aware that women not only fall for his charm but that his looks play a role too.”
Yes, I agree: he knows perfectly well that he looks good and what effect he has on people. It’s a tool, as well as his sunny smile, boyish behavior, humor, carefree attitude and, in his psychic days, his compassionate act and reassuring presence towards the lonely women he used to give advices to. But I don’t think he thinks it’s more than just a tool among many others, otherwise he would be more interested in always maintaining a perfect façade. Indeed, even without getting to the extent of being as unkempt as he was in Vegas, he’s often pretty dishevelled (crumpled clothes, not shaving, sleeping in couches or in a dusty old attic), so I think he would take better care of himself if his looks were that important for him…
Actually, his looks have a wider target than just the women who might become his marks on the show: it’s mainly directed to the audience. That’s why Jane is often presented as a “perfect” man, as least superficially: an attractive man holding babies, who can cook… Especially in the earliest seasons, many details tended to present him as a damaged and mischievous version of the dream man. That may explain why his appearance isn’t mentioned more often since the viewers can see for themselves how attractive he is, no need to have someone mention it: a picture tells a thousand words… 😉
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June 11th, 2013 at 8:25 pm
Wow, what a picture Rose UK! One wonders what is real and what is not; where is the real photographer? Just like the show itself, and much like “A Bar at the Folies-Bergere”, a painting by Edouard Manet ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Bar_at_the_Folies-Bergere ). And what a wonderful interpretation you Violet & Rose had, thanks everybody! 🙂
And now my share of conspiracy theories:
Regarding mirrored images and doppelgangers, I read in another forum that at the end of 5×16, ‘There Will Be Blood’, when Jane & Lisbon are walking towards the lifeless body of Lorelei, there is a very interesting poster of a dancing lady, titled “Four Legged Woman”, presumably a show featuring two dancers dancing in line to make it seem as they are a single person. What makes it much more interesting is that we see another word on that poster and that is “ALIVE”! So what could be the possible relevance to the Lorelei arc? Are we correct in accepting the reality of and the order of events? And It’s in addition to what canddee2012 and CHill have said about her bruised eye and what many are saying about the discrepancy about her wounded left arm!
Better to skip this, but anyway, you see the boots Lisbon is wearing in that picture (and pretty much always)? Well, RJ was wearing similar relatively-high-heeled-for-a-man boots when *he* came to rescue Jane in season 2 finale!
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June 11th, 2013 at 9:15 pm
Phoenixx: Here’s some kind of timeline that I picked up from the episodes that are mentioned in brackets after the info.
2003 – Lisbon joins CBI, RJ kills Jane’s family
2004 – Jane lefts the mental hospital and goes to CBI, is hired later on (Red dawn)
2008 – Show starts, Van Pelt starts to work at CBI (Pilot)
2010 – All the Rigspelt drama going on and Rigsby says to Van Pelt that he assumes that she will be transferred because he has been there for almost 5 years and has a seniority (Redline). This doesn’t make sense because then Rigsby should have started to work at CBI in 2005 but he was working already there a year before
2011 – Jane talks about how cells are replaced in one’s body every seven years and how Lisbon is a complete new person from when they first met (Every rose has its thorn)
2013 – Lisbon’s 10th anniversary at the CBI (Red barn)
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June 11th, 2013 at 10:19 pm
Violet, what perception you have. I could never have seen all that. Thank you.
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June 11th, 2013 at 10:22 pm
Frustrated, I can’t find a photo or a clip of it anywhere, but one of the best Jisbon moments to me happened while Jane and Lisbon were in the observation room at CBI, I think watching the Red John minion social worker be interviewed.
When the RJ harpy is being interrogated, Jane and Lisbon are seated very familiarly in the observation room. Jane is in a chair directly turned towards Lisbon. Lisbon is seated on the table with her legs pointing directly to Jane. It’s very intimate for work, well really for any setting, to me. All Jane would have to do is reach out and he could grab her above the knees, they’re that close. Lisbon is leaning in towards Jane. If Lisbon was sitting in a chair, she would be knee to knee with Jane, if not a little in between his knees. It was pure Jisbon, so subtle and easy to miss.
Anybody else notice this or have a clip or photo?
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June 11th, 2013 at 11:37 pm
Sorry, correction: It’s when Van Pelt is interviewing Roddy Turner that Jane and Lisbon are in the observation room as described.
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June 12th, 2013 at 12:09 am
that was the interview with Roddy Turner, III Frogs. it was an intimate moment much like the “inverted” couch scene in “Red and Tooth and Claw”. i think it ties in with another intimate scene, for me, with Jane and Lisbon in the car while VP and Rigsby are on the radio in RVC.
thanks so much for bringing this up.
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June 12th, 2013 at 12:22 am
YW C Hill. I almost forgot the scene! I really haven’t seen it talked about anywhere except when I ran across my own comment about it on another site. I’d love to have something I could get a still from and manipulate the light so I could really see everything. The room is kind of dark.
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June 12th, 2013 at 12:34 am
I would never take Bruno at his word. He’s misled us before.
There’s this whole contingent of people who’d like to think that Lisbon’s relationship was sisterly or motherly or co-workerish, but I think that’s absolute bull, and if Bruno or any cast members said this then they were simply trying to divert our attention away from a developing crush on both sides from season 1 on. There was chemistry between them from the first. Just because Lisbon was in denial about it for a long time does not mean it wasn’t there. I mean, seriously, what brother and sister will dance together to a romantic song? That happens back in season 2 (“Rose Colored Glasses.”) The way they act toward each other from the beginning is inhibited by many complex factors, so you have to observe a lot of facial expressions and body language which can be quite subtle, but definitely there.
We know that Lisbon has to be professional at all costs–last names only for her team even though she uses first names for others at the CBI, she gives an order, you obey, If Jane gets caught hypnotizing someone or doing something else that she deems unprofessional, she lets him have it in no uncertain terms. That said, she allows him to persuade her to bend the rules and even defends him. The bickering banter they engage in is the kind of thing that old married couples do–they feel comfortable enough doing this and Jane always tries to undermine Lisbon’s authority and she allows him to do it. She keeps up the fiction to herself that she can keep him in line. There is no question that by the time Lorelei is involved with Jane, Lisbon is feeling jealousy and hurt, and she tries to maintain her professionalism with Jane and only barely succeeds.
What I am getting at here is that all of this was there in embryo form in season 1. Lisbon is attracted to Jane and develops a crush in season 1. The difference between season 1 and now is that she and Jane have been through so much, so many years together, that her feelings have deepened and she can no longer remain in denial. She’s still afraid to get close and be open, and so is he, and hopefully it will play out in season 6.
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June 12th, 2013 at 12:38 am
@III Frogs:
“When the RJ harpy is being interrogated, Jane and Lisbon are seated very familiarly in the observation room. Jane is in a chair directly turned towards Lisbon. Lisbon is seated on the table with her legs pointing directly to Jane. It’s very intimate for work, well really for any setting, to me. All Jane would have to do is reach out and he could grab her above the knees, they’re that close. Lisbon is leaning in towards Jane. If Lisbon was sitting in a chair, she would be knee to knee with Jane, if not a little in between his knees. It was pure Jisbon, so subtle and easy to miss.”
I didn’t notice this! I’m going back to watch it again. The whole series is full of subtle body language like this–this is an example of what I was saying in my last post which has not yet appeared. But this sounds like a step further than they have gone before!
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June 12th, 2013 at 12:43 am
well, i have a digital copy, and the program i use for replay let’s you tune the pic. i admit i had already looked and, as far as i can tell, there’s no “footsie” going on, III Frogs 🙂 i’ll keep checking.
there is an empty chair in the back of the room.that seems to be lighted that’s kind of interesting, though. not sure why i notice those kind of things. probably just onset OCD … lol…
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June 12th, 2013 at 12:50 am
OK, no footsie then! That helps my curiosity a lot, C Hill, thanks! Do you see what I describe about their positioning, especially if they were seated at the same level, like if Lisbon was lowered straight down sitting in a chair instead of elevated on the table? I know I must sound crazy, but it’s been a month since any TM episode and I ran across this gem to think about. Please forgive me, everybody, if I’m driving you crazy. 🙂 Even positioned just as they are, it seems pretty intimate to me.
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June 12th, 2013 at 12:50 am
“lets” .. sigh. need to be able to edit posts.
this scene with jane/lisbon is one reason i like RJR so much. and we follow with the “killed a happy memory” scene.
i find it a very layered epi with good continuity. which is why i wonder about the receptionist at the childrens home…
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June 12th, 2013 at 12:59 am
“Do you see what I describe about their positioning, especially if they were seated at the same level, like if Lisbon was lowered straight down sitting in a chair instead of elevated on the table?”
oh, no, i agree, III Frogs. I think it’s very suggestive and provocative.
Also, given the position, it’s Lisbon that initiated the closeness, which is quite interesting as well. perhaps that’s the importance of the lighted empty chair — Lisbon could have pulled that chair up but instead she sits on the desk near Jane.
And, in thinking back to Red in Tooth and Claw, the “professor throws herself at Jane” scene :), Jane still says he’s married. Or, perhaps, not married anymore, but taken…
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June 12th, 2013 at 1:05 am
OMG. What a great take on the highlighted empty chair! It makes such perfect TM sense! I love it. You don’t know how much I appreciate you checking this out with me! I love thinking and talking about this show. It’s so layered.
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June 12th, 2013 at 1:29 am
III Frogs. Thanks so much. I’m happy to help. Or enable. 🙂
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June 12th, 2013 at 7:13 am
@Auli and Lou Ann: Thanx for the “timeline”. Well that to some extend doesn’t make any sense (typical TV), the Pilot with the 5 years yes (then S1 would really be the 3th year) but somehow I was convinced Lisbon said Jane was gone for 2 years after that awful night. Have to rewatch those eps.
@C Hill: The interesting thing is he doesn’t say anything but just sort of displays his wedding ring, it’s Dr Kidd who then says “the best one’s are always taken, it’s natural selection” or something that.
One of my fave moments cause usually Jane said in those moments he was married plus pointing at the ring but here he doesn’t say anything and the fact Kidd says he’s TAKEN not married is something I don’t think was coincidental. Also Jane’s smiles when he turns around and seemed as if he was thinking about what Kidd said.
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June 12th, 2013 at 10:25 am
thanks, phoenixx. your accurate representation of the scene is even more suggestive.
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June 12th, 2013 at 8:36 pm
I understand your perspective, Suzjazz, but I was recently watching an interview of Robin Tunney in which she was asked about the attraction between Jane and Lisbon, to which she did reply saying that they do love it each other, and that the question is will they or won’t them act upon their feelings.
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June 12th, 2013 at 10:42 pm
@ Anomaly: Well, Jane does like to check people’s shoes, so you never know! I like the ideas behind the carnival poster; that’s intriguing, even if I’m not quite sure I believe it. 😉 It’s also the kind of thing I was looking for in the Venice Beach scene – you have a good eye, C Hill, by the way! The extras always pass me by.
Anyways, all your comments on body language made me go back and watch Red Moon (as I like how J & L are physically placed in that one; I was also interested in Estatica’s comments above) and I noticed with somewhat of a start that the victim is called “Keeley Farlow”! (Think “LeeLee Barlow”). I think Heller’s having a laugh with that one. 😉 But it’s a good example of the use of similar-ish names throughout the seasons (e.g. Ellis Mars/Elliston Farm). More echoes and mirrors.
Also, for Violet & her work on themes, a poster on another forum (dated a couple of years ago) remarked on how there was a citrus fruit motif running through the early seasons, particularly lemons (possibly also tying in with the yellow flowers). I remembered this as I watched Red Sky at Night earlier (yes, I had a mini Mentalist marathon tonight) and there is a whole row of them clearly on display in Kristina Frye’s house. Not sure it’s been discussed before, but I thought it might be a good one for your upcoming post. 🙂
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June 13th, 2013 at 2:38 am
to be fair, rose, most of my extras/guest star notices are from online sources. things like chairs, flowers, and pictures of musical instruments are things i see 🙂
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June 13th, 2013 at 12:35 pm
@ RoseUK: Thanks, yet I may be totally mistaken about the boot heels. It’s such a common feature of women footwear that it could be any woman in the show, and as I gather (and I was not aware of it before), men too can wear shoes with “elevated heels” according to Wikipedia, such as cowboy boots, and biker boots. And we had both cowboy and biker themed episodes in the show! Anyway, you ladies are certainly much more entitled to comment about articles of clothing than me! It was just a futile attempt on my part at finding these very hard to come by clues. 🙂
And about that poster, I, too, have difficulty accepting the theory, yet there is also a distorting mirror beside it on the ground that actually reflects two sets of legs for Jane from the view point of camera when he is returning!
I’m just lost in keeping up with all the wonderful comments of everybody, don’t know which comment of C Hill you are referring to, so pardon me please if I am repeating anybody. It’s most probably nothing, but since you mentioned it, the only thing that got hold of my attention in the Venice Beach clip was the boy holding a skateboard that was walking behind Jane & Lisbon when they were returning. He just reminded me of the old photo of Lisbon’s brothers with skateboards she is keeping in her home that we saw in 2×3,’Red Badge’.
You’re quite right about those word play games of Heller’s; I just hope the game he’s playing with us is a fair one. 🙂
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June 13th, 2013 at 3:26 pm
and by online sources, i mean checking out the cast lists, etc. though i believe i saw an appearance by M.C. Gainey (carnie Pete) on a diners, drive-ins, and dive episode last night…
here’s the interview ifrah mentions. it’s from a monte carlo awards show appearance. i daresay i get as much or more enjoyment listening to and watching Robin than most(ha!) of you get out of watching Simon…lol…
Nice interview, though.
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June 13th, 2013 at 3:42 pm
@ C Hill: Count me too! I never thought before that I could become such a huge fan of hers! And what a nice & honest interview! 🙂
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June 14th, 2013 at 7:14 am
C Hill i agree, I absolutely adore Robin and enjoy her interviews so much.
Wanted to add something I saw on tumblr yesterday. There was a screencap of Lisbon/Jane in front of the desk by the receptionist in RVC. And becasue there was so much talking about paintings, images that could mean something I thought that the fact that Buddy’s poster with the heading “Prescription for Love” is right in the middle of them supports our theory of Jane talking to Buddy about himself.
Surely that wasn’t a coincidence either.
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June 14th, 2013 at 7:33 am
YAY we won BEST TV DRAMA! And again Robin is so lovely. 😀
http://www.festivalproductionservice.com/media/interview-robin-tunney-2
Also check out the other interview in the library next to this one.
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June 14th, 2013 at 7:54 pm
Thank you for the link, and yes, Robin is lovely. 🙂 Congrats to TM for winning the well-deserved award.
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June 15th, 2013 at 9:27 pm
Anomaly, you’re in danger of getting me started on my favourite subject again: language. I find it fascinating how language is used in general; how the choice of even just a single word can totally alter or affect the sense, feeling and impact of a sentence. It is so powerful yet subtle and I love studying its usage in texts. And of course in ‘mentalism’ I suppose the power of suggestion (via language) is key. We’ve seen how language plays a role in various episodes; just off the top of my head:-
Code Red: Jane hypnotises suspect Lilith, but he doesn’t directly tell her to run away. Instead he says, “I know how Harken’s thoughts *run*. A way to blame you will be found. I repeat. I know how Harken’s thoughts *run*.”
Bleeding Heart: Jane identifies the eco-warrior Jasper by his use of the phrase “in actuality”.
Red in Tooth & Claw: The linguistic Bingo game.
There are probably more examples, if only I could think of them! Anyway, it makes me wonder if any clues can be deduced from the language used by RJ or minions/suspects, and also if we are subtly being mentalised by Heller’s choice of words. I don’t know! I mean, you could argue that all language is designed to influence the recipient; it’s one of its functions in general. Oh, it’s late. Just an idea kicking around… 😉
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June 15th, 2013 at 9:33 pm
I can never catch what she say about how she hurt her hand. Does anyone know?
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June 16th, 2013 at 12:47 am
reader22, it was just a simple “i fell. i tripped.” i believe. nothing sinister, i think they were tired of dancing around the effects of RT’s skiing (IIRC) accident.
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June 16th, 2013 at 12:52 am
Thank you C Hill!! 🙂 I wonder why they said anything at all? It’s not like it was part of the story.
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June 16th, 2013 at 1:15 am
i seemed to have missed this from anomaly:
“Regarding mirrored images and doppelgangers, I read in another forum that at the end of 5×16, ‘There Will Be Blood’, when Jane & Lisbon are walking towards the lifeless body of Lorelei, there is a very interesting poster of a dancing lady, titled “Four Legged Woman”, presumably a show featuring two dancers dancing in line to make it seem as they are a single person. What makes it much more interesting is that we see another word on that poster and that is “ALIVE”! So what could be the possible relevance to the Lorelei arc? Are we correct in accepting the reality of and the order of events? And It’s in addition to what canddee2012 and CHill have said about her bruised eye and what many are saying about the discrepancy about her wounded left arm!”
the left arm might just be continuity, maybe not. the bruised eye…hmmm.
given that we already have an example of homeland security completely taking over a crime scene, i’m starting to warm up to the idea that Lorelei is alive. what if Lorelei was drugged to appear dead, and then HS didn’t allow a local autospy? that would certainly make the gag a lot easier.
i think there is a lot in that Lorelei “death” scene, whether it turns out she’s alive or not, though i haven’t been able to pull much out of it myself.
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June 16th, 2013 at 1:27 am
“Thank you C Hill!! 🙂 I wonder why they said anything at all? It’s not like it was part of the story.”
good question reader22. i think they anticipated the conspiracy TM fans linking the injury to Lisbon being RJ 🙂
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June 16th, 2013 at 2:05 am
I believe that Lorelei is alive. The death scene looked completely fake, staged, and there was that bruise that she had in the video that wasn’t there at the death scene. The main reason I think so (but most fans do not agree with me) is that Lorelei was supposedly killed before Jane came up with his list of 7 suspects, so how could she be reading the list in a video? Obviously Red John is not a mind reader and did not figure out Jane’s list of 7 before he (Jane) did. The only explanation that makes any sense is that Jane left a fake list in his attic after Lorelei faked her death, which was given to RJ after he had someone break into Jane’s attic (I don’t think it was Kirkland, I think it was someone else) It can’t be Jane’s real list because he must have the list memorized and left a written one as a decoy. BH said to trust “the list,” however, he does not say *what* list.
Lorelei was captured by RJ and forced to make the video after he brutalized her, and there is every reason to think that he has kept her alive for his own reasons. Why would he kill her? (Unless it was in self-defense after she came after him for killing her sister.)
The fact that Brett Partridge remarks that Lorelei’s death “doesn’t count” among RJ’s victims because it was an internal matter is in itself suspicious.
How does Partridge even know about the relationship between RJ and Lorelei? And maybe the real reason her death doesn’t count is that RJ never killed her.
I’m just theorizing. Pay no attention to the crazy woman tapping on her laptop. 🙂
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June 16th, 2013 at 5:24 am
Now for the big reveal. Patrick Jane and Red John are the same person. He’s a dual personality. The RJ personality is aware of the Patrick Jane personality, but the Patrick Jane personality is not aware of the RJ personality. All of RJ’s minions obviously know that RJ and Jane are one and the same person and they know the situation. This explains a lot. Why RJ is always one or two steps ahead of Jane. Why RJ is so obsessed with Jane. Why the seven candidates presented are so incredibly lame that they can’t possibly be RJ. Who else but Jane with his incredible mentalist capabilities and persuasive and winning personaity could be RJ on this show? Malcolm McDowell could be if he were twenty years younger. He’s too old to be doing this stuff.
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June 16th, 2013 at 7:00 am
@ortforshort: Speculation was rife after the season 6 finale and many thought that Jane was RJ. However, Bruno Heller categorically said in an interview that this wasn’t the case. I don’t take seriously everything that BH says but I think this was true, otherwise it would be awfully misleading and downright lame…and the backlash from TM fans would be terrible.
I think BH is telling the truth in this case, so…they are not the same people 🙂 (thank God I should add!)
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June 16th, 2013 at 7:02 am
sorry, forgot to leave the link to BH’s interview:
http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/05/06/mentalist-finale-season-6-red-john-list/
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June 16th, 2013 at 9:04 am
Too bad. It’s going to be really lame, if BH is not speaking with forked tongue. Not only that, but that last episode was pure foolishness unless Jane is RJ
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June 16th, 2013 at 12:09 pm
“Too bad. It’s going to be really lame, if BH is not speaking with forked tongue. Not only that, but that last episode was pure foolishness unless Jane is RJ”
can you walk me through this?
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June 16th, 2013 at 10:09 pm
Sorry for not being clear. RJ knew the seven suspects two months before Jane knew them. They were on the Lorelei tape. Also RJ knew a memory that only Jane could possibly have known. Either RJ is super psychic and remarkably, to put it mildly, ahead of what Jane is doing or thinking of doing two months in advance, or RJ is Jane. It’s a rare but well documented condition of multiple personalites. Where the hideous one is well aware of the good personality, but not vice versa. Anyway, the last episode makes absolutely no sense whatsoever unless RJ was actually in Jane’s head. As far as the lameness. I’m sorry the seven candidates have zero charisma (except for Malcolm McDowell), zero mentalist capabilities (except Malcolm McDowell) and zero power to get moles into all sorts of places in the FBI. CBI and various police departments (except Malcolm McDowell). The problem with it being Malcolm McDowell is first, he’s just plain too old and frail to let his libido control him and be physically manhandling people. And, more importantly, a guy that high up the ladder pretty much lives a totally insulated life. Others do everything for him. He just can’t be sneaking off serial killing. At his level, he’d have to have others killing for him, which makes no sense. Anyway, if it turns out to be one of the seven, then the writers have done us all a great injustice. The only guy on the show, other than a younger, less high up the food chain McDowell, with the qualities of RJ is Jane. And, like I said, the last episode makes perfect sense only if Jane is RJ. Otherwise, it would have to be some weird psychic mumbo jumbo to cause what we saw.
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June 16th, 2013 at 10:19 pm
An intriguing idea indeed, RoseUK, finding the “red bead”! Now let’s recall another subtlety in language used in TM besides choice of the words; recently I re-watched season 3 finale, ’Strawberries and Cream’; there, when Bertram asks Lisbon how the hell did Jane know that the bomber was Gupta, she replies that as the Bomber could directly speak to the victim (through the cell phone), there was no need to leave him the address as a message. But when you watch the moment that Jane identifies the bomber when he and Lisbon are going to the CBI headquarters, it actually seems that he recognizes Gupta’s Indian accent even though it’s passed through a voice disguiser! Not sure about it but it seems to me as though Jane picked the difference in his pronunciation of ‘r’ at the end of the words or maybe the intonation. Gupta himself recognizes his lapse and repeats the sentence with American accent, but it’s already too late! So in addition to your question we can ask what can we deduce from the instances we heard the supposed disguised voice of RJ?
@ C Hill & suzjazz: So let’s call Lorelei “Schrodinger’s cat” for now! 😉 (There was more than one allusion to that in ‘Red and Itchy’!)
@ phoenixx: Good eye! Absolutely (to an uncertain degree of uncertainty) no coincidences in TM! 🙂
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June 17th, 2013 at 12:42 am
I hope it’s not Jane. I am very wary of everything Heller says, but this time he seemed extremely emphatic that Jane is not RJ. If I wanted to watch Fight Club, I’d watch Fight Club. It would really suck if Jane were RJ.
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June 17th, 2013 at 12:57 am
thanks,ort. i think that’s pretty linear thinking, though. i think there are other ways to look at this. i think primarily that Lorelei not being dead (her death faked by BK/HS) makes the gag work well and leaves open the why (RJ, BK, etc.)
the “memory only Jane knew”– that one’s pretty easy. either someone noticed at the time (and it was Sean Barlow’s son Kevin holding up LeeLee in the memory) or it’s something he told Sophie Miller during therapy. I lean toward the latter and there’s a number of folks who could could easily have access to that.
and while I think there’s a chance there might be a tweak to the list (as part of a longer reveal), I still think there’s a good chance RJ is working as a pair of people. plus, and i think i’ve noted on this thread, there’s no way that a RJ suspect (outside of Stiles, whom I don’t think is RJ) is going to *show* his true nature to Jane (or anyone in law enforcement).
so, at the end of the day, while I doubt Heller is telling the entire truth, because show runners don’t do that, I think much of the structure as laid out in season 5 and in RJR will hold up. i suppose there’s a chance that PJ is RJ, but i think that would be the easy way out for Heller (to put it nicely) and least satisfying to everyone involved.
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June 17th, 2013 at 3:35 am
Until the last episode, I didn’t think Jane was RJ either. Nor do I want him to be RJ. I like Jane. That being said, the whole episode pointed towards RJ knowing stuff that only, and I mean only, Jane could know. Who knows what’s in BH’s mind, but why falsely lead us down that path? Looking back on the series with the idea that Jane is RJ and doesn’t know it, puts a different spin on pretty much every scene. For example, you would think, if this were the case, that there were many times when it was actually RJ sitting in the room with Lisbon, Cho, Van Pelt and Rigsby. That puts a whole new spin on the Lisbon – Jane dynamic. On the other hand, where would Jane, as RJ, have gotten the time to build his RJ band of disciples? And why hasn’t Jane had memory gaps – since he would not remember the times when he was RJ? Anyway, the whole episode to me was baffling. They were throwing up some sort of a psychic, spiritual nonsense to try to explain RJ being in Jane’s head. Why would the writers open up this nebulous area – to come up with this lame plotline?
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June 17th, 2013 at 3:50 am
my longer response is in purgatory, but in the last episode we have:
1) a RJ killing with PJ locked down (yeah he could have gotten out the attic window i suppose, but that’s never been shown as a possibility
2) the RJ minion in this episode says, to Jane, that RJ has been a friend and helped her “for a long time”
two fairly strong data points against Jane being RJ.
as you will see (I hope!) in my longer response, ort, i think your focus on the “psychic, spiritual nonsense” is exactly that — these are red herrings.
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June 17th, 2013 at 5:08 am
It’s obvious (at least to me) that Heller does not believe in psychics, only mentalists pretending to be psychics, which is what Red John (and Sean Barlow) is. I do not think that the writers are giving us psychic drivel to explain RJ “knowing what is in Jane’s head.” There is a real-life, non-psychic explanation for RJ knowing what he knows, though I’m damned if I can figure out what it is. RJ obtained information somehow about Jane’s list of suspects, which is why he had the same list. And he didn’t know the exact memory Jane had of Eileen. All he had to know was that she was an important person in his past and that the chances were good that Jane had a happy memory of her. He didn’t steal a specific memory that Jane never shared with anyone. RJ probably knows Sean Barlow and got him to give him a list of people from Jane’s past that he could kill. Barlow (or even possibly Red John) might even have been a witness to some of Jane’s childhood good times. So I am not buying this “I killed a memory you never told anyone” business.
I believe that RJ is not Jane, but he is a mentalist who can match wits with Jane. I also think that Jane isn’t buying the “Red John is psychic” nonsense either. Jane’s problem isn’t so much that RJ got hold of his list–it’s all the people RJ going to start killing, and Jane doesn’t know who they are. There is no way to protect them from RJ, and Jane will have their deaths on his conscience. This is Red John’s intent. It is likely that Lisbon will be one of his targets, and also the other members of the CBI team. So Jane will be frantic to protect them from RJ as he tries to find him without the help of the team–only Lisbon. And so far, beginning with RJ’s first murders in the 1990s, he has left no evidence on the crime scene, nor has anyone he wanted to kill ever escaped (except one of the young sisters he abducted–he killed one of them.) It would seem that it’s impossible to prevent RJ from succeeding in killing anyone if he wants to kill that person, which is what is so terrifying. The implications (especially for Lisbon) are dire. Jane must now be beside himself with terror. But NOT because Red John is psychic.
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June 17th, 2013 at 5:13 am
My comment is awaiting moderation, I guess, but the gist of it is this: There are no psychics on The Mentalist. Not Jane, not Kristina, not Sean Barlow, and not Red John. Everything that happens occurs for a non-psychic reason.
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June 17th, 2013 at 7:52 am
@C Hill and @ortforshort: I agree with C Hill. Moreover, Lorelei’s revenge story arc is based on her quest to know if RJ really killed her sister as Jane said. When she found out the truth, she went looking for RJ to kill him. She always had Jane where she wanted, if he indeed was RJ, she would have killed him there and then. And she seemed to know RJ very well.
It doesn’t make sense that Jane is RJ, otherwise, this will become the most convoluted and ridiculous cat/mouse game in the history of TV ever and I don’t think they would even dare to write something so lame. I think the last episode was designed to leave us viewers speculating over the possibilities (how does RJ do this? who is he? how come such and such are on the list?, etc.), it is quite a weird episode and they must have the sequel in their heads (I hope!).
My money is on Bertram. Just sayin’.
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June 17th, 2013 at 8:38 am
I agree with everyone about Jane not being RJ that would be total bogus. C Hill mentioned Lorelei and she’s just one example.
Also they have to think about DVD sells etc. if the “Hero” turns out to be the bad guy I think a lot of people would be dissapointed this is not Dexter.
About the list, I’m certain it’s genuine, they put so much focus on the 7 at the end and let’s face it this was the big thing in the finale they won’t just go: “Oh hey, April fool!”
Also agree about no one is psychic, BH doesn’t believe in that thing, so it would be weird if he turned that way, also the fact that the finale made it look like there’s no other explanation is interesting in this regard.
Of course there’s the question since when did RJ know the list. Fact is the whole LeeLee murder happened the night after Jane had his list and burned everything else. And from the DVD we know he set it up to bring Jane to the list which means RJ knew exactly when Jane had his list together what leads us back to the question if RJ has bugs/cameras within the CBI. Otherwise he couldn’t know when Jane had his list (for me one indicator that Haffner -surveillance specialist- is RJ).
Honestly it looks like one big magic trick and now Jane has to find outhow that works.
@ortforshort: RJ knwoing about Jane’s happy memory, there are other explanations, just because Jane said he never told anyone doesn’t mean that’s correct, he was in a mental facility after all, who knows what they injected and what he told whom there.
Also RJ could know him from the carnival and was there that day, they parted obviously never became friends and Jane doesn’t remember that. Jane has his memory palace but he also said that he only saves the things he conciders interesting/worthy enough.
BTW I think (and hope) Jane and RJ know/met each other way before. The whole carnival theme at Loerelei’s crime scene, the way he lead him back to his past in the finale, I always hoped the TV interview wasn’t the actual reason for RJ going after Jane but that there’s something before that and the interview was the final straw. I’m still pretty sure at that time Jane wasn’t the only one talking bad about RJ.
If Lorelei is still alive (if we take the poster in concideration) for me they have to have a really good explanation, there were just too many people involved for not one noticing otherwise RJ really is bigger than life and I still don’t believe Kirkland is RJ, I think he’s got another story going on (which probably icludes Bertram, though I’d love Bertram as RJ, especially with what happened in S3 ).
On the other hand even if she’s still alive until the finale, she surely is dead now, RJ has no reason anymore to keep her alive.
About Bertram maybe being RJ, there was also a deleted scene from the Pilot (I think) where Jane describes RJ as someone with thin hair, which means by now RJ could as well be bald.
BTW the whole rape thing, we don’t know if RJ did tha right?
I got the expression that Lennon raped these women (Miranda). And then RJ killed them. Lennon said he didn’t do it but at that moment he also said he was innocent and wouldn’t know what Jane meant.
Okay that was a lot, sorry, my mind’s running in circles lately comming up with so many things. 😛
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June 17th, 2013 at 9:06 am
I think Phoenixx might have hit the nail on the head by describing it as “one big magic trick”… I put it one of my posts above that I thought Heller’s introduction of the psychic idea was interesting – not because I think it’s a plot explanation (too easy, too groan-worthy), but because it forms the basis of who Jane was pre-murder. His whole act, job, profession, etc. was pretending to be a psychic and it prompted the most traumatising and awful event of his life. Look how he basically despises other self-confessed clairvoyants now (Kristina, Ellis Mars) or is condescending towards anyone who thinks they have a gift or even believes in that gift (see: Van Pelt). And now for RJ to evidently be “winning” the game – by the very tool that Jane blames himself for pretending to use (to other people’s detriment) – must be an extra kick in the teeth for him. If there was one more way to annoy, mock and lord it over Jane, surely it would be this.
😉
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June 17th, 2013 at 12:33 pm
Phoenixx: I have been watching reruns of the Mentalist and couple of things just popped to my head.
First of all, I would hate it if Patrick was RJ. It would be just cruel to make the viewers to root for him and to care about him just to reveal that he was bad all along.
It has been mentioned on this blog by many commentors that family is a big theme in this series. We have these made up families that the CBI team represents and we have these families by blood that are not so family-like but one can’t still escape from them. What I found quite interesting while rewatching for how manyet time the s5 finale were the carny families. It seems that family is considered quite sacred and even though there would be problems it is dealt just within the family. Other thing is the carny family feuds. I didn´t realise in the first time but if look at the interaction with Jane and Barlow, they really didn’t like each other even though they hadn´t met in 30 years and Barlow had some frictions with Jane’s father. Also, the victim’s Irish husband wasn’t in Barlow’s favoutire because he had messed up with some people in Ireland. So it seems that if one mess up with some person, he or she messed up with the whole family for a long time. So, Phoenixx, your wish that RJ and Jane have met before everything might not be that farfetched. It could be even that Jane himself hasn’t done anything to RJ but it could be that Jane’s wicked father has been messing around with RJ’s family.
About the bugs in the CBI and who RJ is. I watched the e2s2 (if I remember right) about the senator’s assitant murder where they used filming angles that made one think that someone is listening or watching and indeed in that episode it turned out that CBI was bugged. So, I am starting to agree with the people (I think it was Old Man and some others) who talked about the possibility of bugs. If this is true, it will be interesting to find out how long time they have been there and how much does Rj know.
With this info, I put my money on Haffner. I know, I know, he doesn´t seem to have the charisma, Jane played him but I have other things to back up this assumption. First, serial killers in real life are not described as creepy but as normal and people close to them have been shocked when they found out their business. Other thing that backs up that RJ appears to be normal is if look at the minions. There are two types of them as far as we know, 1. the victims of abuse or some trauma (Rebecca and Lorelie) or 2. the monsters who appeared to be normal citizens (the cop killer and Carter). I think that RJ is in the second group and knows how to connect with similar kinds of people but he has to appear also normal and caring so that he can connect to traumatized victims and pretend to care for them so that they fall for him and become depending from him. Besides, Haffner told to Lisbon that he had some difficulties when he was a youngster (what difficulties?! where?!) and found peace by the Visualize. Maybe he could use similar tricks to his minions?
I know that he doesn’t fit in all aspects (he’s too tall but I am willing to forgive this, Rosalins was after all in love with him, didn´t believe that he was a killer and who can really give that close description of someone’s height) but from the group of seven and with the clues (I believe that they are somewhat legit) that we’ve got, I go for Haffner.
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June 17th, 2013 at 4:30 pm
Unfortunately, there’s no good answer to this puzzle. The last episode, to me, was a red herring and it would be nice if we could disregard the whole thing because it certainly set this series backwards quite a bit. Anyway, altho’ I tend to agree with you all that Jane isn’t RJ altho’ none of your arguments really convinced me of that, the old episodes I do watch this summer, I’ll watch with the thought that Jane and RJ are one and the same – it’ll add a nice spin to them
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June 17th, 2013 at 8:28 pm
I do agree with you: Jane is not RJ! But I think he is Kirkland. He looks, speaks like a psychopath.
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June 17th, 2013 at 10:39 pm
I agree with phoenixx and roseuk. The finale is a “magic trick” or sleight of hand. And so we have to determine where or what is playing the part of the magician’s assistant. I just rewatched the pilot in which Jane notes that every magician has an attractive female who serves as the “reliable distraction of attention.” Who or what is being used to take our eyes off the trick? Like the trick with the gold nugget under the cups in Red Letter Day, our eyes are being drawn in the wrong direction. But I’m not smart enough to figure it out.
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June 17th, 2013 at 11:27 pm
I don’t think Jane is RJ either. What if the person helping RJ was Lisbon? I really don’t think it’s Kirkland they just want us to think its him. I can’t tell you how much I don’t want it to be Haffner I really like him. My guess Bertram or Stiles.
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June 17th, 2013 at 11:28 pm
My post is still in limbo–maybe rejected? I did not say anything offensive.
I agree with all who say that Red John is playing a huge magic trick (and maybe the writers also) and Lou Ann is right about the magician’s assistant who is there to distract the audience. It might be too literal to translate this as an attractive female–it could be anything or anyone. It’s driving me nuts that I can’t figure out the trick, but then I have never been able to figure out the simplest card or coin trick (now you see it, now you don’t.) I think we will see RJ make a mistake or two in his next killings in season 6. It’s probably the only way to stop him.
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June 18th, 2013 at 12:59 am
suzjazz: “It might be too literal to translate this as an attractive female–it could be anything or anyone. ”
i was about ready to make the same point — the distraction can be a pretty girl, a loud sound, a visual component….or Lorelei.
anyhoo, and i’m sure we’ll get into more of this once violet opens up the season 6 wishes/guesses/etc, there are a lot of options here.
i agree with most that RJ is not Stiles — but, as I advanced a while ago, what if Stiles has a son? couple that with, i think, in some ways Stiles sees Jane as a son, and there’s some interesting plot lines there.
and, fear not, suzjazz, one of my posts is in purgatory as well — i think if it doesn’t come back, it’s just lost at sea, not rejected! 🙂
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June 18th, 2013 at 4:40 am
I’m beginning to feel that the magic trick is the writers making me try to figure out this mess
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June 18th, 2013 at 7:18 am
Agree with C Hill,
“i was about ready to make the same point — the distraction can be a pretty girl, a loud sound, a visual component….or Lorelei.”
Everyone “knows” she is ‘dead’, so everyone’s going, oh crap how could he know that such a long time before but if she actually wasn’t dead at that time it’s an illusion. Of course the question still stands how he got his hands on Jane’s list.
C Hill wrote: “i agree with most that RJ is not Stiles — but, as I advanced a while ago, what if Stiles has a son? couple that with, i think, in some ways Stiles sees Jane as a son, and there’s some interesting plot lines there.”
LOL I was just thinking that yesterday, what if Partridge is his son, they share the same first name.
Oh and I was dreaming again about that whole “mirroring” thing, in the only episode where we actually “met” a magician, Jane’s old friend Jack, Jane later uses a “mirror” trick and the “person on stage is not the actual person” trick. The person on stage distracted the audience here and no one (including security) knew what was really going on. While in the vault Jane and Jack were hiding behind the table but the security couldn’t see them because the mirror in front of the table made them “invisible”.
So we could take that as well and say RJ has someone who distracts the people from him. For example: Since we know Bertram and Kirkland has something cooking, it could be that Kirkland works as a distraction for Bertram. He kills Lennon and is overall creepy whereas Bertram stays in the background. (not saying that’s what it is but I used it to explain what I meant).
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June 18th, 2013 at 7:25 am
Oh right forgot: I love that Robin Tunney mentioned S6 won’t be the ‘crime of the week’ season, so that promises some real action but, and i dread that already, also a possibilty for many cliffhanger episodes.
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June 18th, 2013 at 8:42 am
We’re under moderation! Let’s occupy WordPress! (Whatever it may mean) 🙂
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June 18th, 2013 at 3:00 pm
Not that we should take any of this as gospel, after all it’s from an outtake in the pilot, but….Here is the description of RJ posited by Jane in the TV interview scene that angers RJ into killing Jane’s family. Or, as someone suggested, RJ already had the Jane family in his sights and this was the catalyst.
he is ordinary looking
mid-thirties
medium height
thinning brown hair
methodical
tidy
very clean
small speech impediment of which he is ashamed
lives with mother or sister
single-story blue house
citrus tree in front yard, probably lemon
The rest of the description was left in the scene: ugly, tormented little man, a lonely soul, very sad, and burning with the cold flame of demonic evil.
As I said, perhaps we cannot put much trust in something deliberately removed from the pilot, and written perhaps before the entire story arc was conceived, but I figured I’d put it out there.
BH has said in early interviews that when he wrote the pilot he knew who RJ was and had a general concept of how the story would play out. Maybe this scene was deleted because they didn’t want to provide so much information right at the beginning or maybe because they wanted freedom to let the story develop in a different direction.
Also, I don’t think that the distractor of the trick has to be a pretty woman. It could be anyone or anything.
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June 18th, 2013 at 7:37 pm
They got rid of it because it doesn’t describe RJ at all. In order for him to have people jumping off of buildings for him, he’s got to be exceptionally charismatic. No one is jumping off af a building for an ugly tormented little man with a speech impediment. I don’t see anything in there about a person who is exceptionally perceptive, a mentalist above all mentalists. I also don’t see anything in there about an exceptionally brilliant person who can stay several steps ahead of another charismatic, brilliant and exceptionally perceptive person. This list of seven has really watered down what RJ has developed into on this show. Only Stiles and Jane fit the bill. This outtake from the pilot in no way resembles what RJ has developed into on this show.
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June 18th, 2013 at 8:04 pm
part of the initial read by Jane is that, well, it’s so wrong — like a bad profile.
and while we’ve seen signs of RJ being bright, much of what he’s done can be explained by being a mentalist — just having more information and assets than necessary to control a situation. clearly there is some level of charisma involved, but as I’ve noted before, having a such a strong character showing that would be a terrible tell. you see someone like Partridge, who shows glimpses of being dominant vs one group and showing a submissive side to another.
but, again, the way american procedurals are done, sometimes the writers/creators are thrown curve balls and there is adaptation, which leads to inconsistencies in all shows, including TM.
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June 18th, 2013 at 8:07 pm
Well, I may be wrong, but I wonder if it isn’t the other way around, Ortforshort: I mean, if they didn’t get rid of it because that “vision” Jane had of RJ didn’t reflect *Jane’s* abilities at all. It was too precise to ever be completely right: if Jane was as clever as they made him to be, he would never give so many details, but he would rather stay vague. At the time he was already successfully working with the police, he arrogantly believed he was going to catch RJ, because he was used to be the smartest in the room and he relied on that. And what would have happened had they caught him then: the detailed physical description, the speech impediment, the sister/mother, the lemon tree… no way all that would have been spot on. It would have been smarter to stay vague, to give the illusion to give the audience something, without actually doing it (like he did in the actual pilot). After all, they had no real suspect at the time, no clues concerning his identity he could have based his act on. Remember his amusement at Ellis Mars when the fake psychic based an entire theory on almost nothing: that would have been what Jane would have been doing had they let that scene in the pilot, and Jane is far smarter than Mars…
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June 18th, 2013 at 8:21 pm
i’m going to have to start making copies of my posts…did another just visit the ether or is it in moderation….
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June 18th, 2013 at 10:25 pm
I’m going to have to save my brilliant comments for when RB gets the WordPress fixed–who knows if even this will see the light of day? Just wanted to say: thank you Lou Ann for the insight into the deleted stuff from the pilot. Everyone has made good points. One of the biggest mysteries to me is that none of the suspects is smart enough and charismatic enough to be RJ (except maybe Bret Stiles and he is too old.) And certainly that description that was cut from the pilot doesn’t seem to do RJ justice. Could someone this powerful really be living at home with his mother? I am totally confused and stymied by both *who* RJ could be and *how* he pulled off the big magic trick, the so-called mind reading and “stealing Jane’s memory.” They’d better have an awesome explanation for this in Season 6!
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June 18th, 2013 at 11:59 pm
suz, part of my missing post offers that RJ is smart, but not that smart, and is using a vast array of sources and information coupled with the right kind of charisma to pull this off. if you know more, you seem smarter — but the knowledge gap is starting to close.
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June 20th, 2013 at 3:53 am
Well, I found this blog 2 or 3 months ago. I got completely addicted to it, I love the reviews and reading peoples comments. Anyway, after they had an RJ accomplice called O’Laghling (I mean, really Heller?), I decided to look for Kirkland’s last name (because I suspected he was RJ) to see if it meant something interesting or whatever. So I found that Kirkland is a Scottish topographic name for someone who lived on land belonging to the Church. So…isn’t Visualize considered a kind of church? And wasn’t RJ in one of the farms that belonged to Visualize? Well, after that I went to see if Robert had any “special” meaning, and while searching for the meaning of the name Robert I found a Rob Roy, also known as Red Rob. Red Rob’s real name was Robert Roy MacGregor, he is some kind of Scottish folk hero, and there is also a Wikipedia page on him. But the thing is that, while looking at his wiki page I found this: “In 1716 Rob Roy moved to Glen Shira for a short time and lived under the protection of John Campbell, 2nd Duke of Argyll also known as Red John of the Battles”
Now I don’t know if I think he is RJ or an accomplice or if I’m reading too much into it. I’m probably reading too much into it, but I found all this very interesting…
Well, what do you guys think? I’m still not sure if Kirkland is RJ. Actually…I’m not sure of any of the suspects. I’m very anxious for next season. Well, like the True Blood’s promo says: Waiting Sucks!
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June 20th, 2013 at 4:24 am
Oh…there is another thing I forgot to say in my previous post (that I don’t even know if it will show up here) is that I think RJ is a mentalist as well. The use of the word ‘clever’ more than once during that video with Lorelei, mocking Jane’s “luck”, saying he was just lucky and not clever, that he was going to show him what clever was. It seemed to me like a battle of wits. So, if RJ is a mentalist, then he could hypnotize people so they would kill themselves, like the girl who jumped off the balcony in season 3…right? Can you really hypnotize someone into killing themselves? I remember Jane saying that you can’t hypnotize someone into doing something that they don’t want to or aren’t capable of. So maybe RJ picks depressed or damaged people to be part of his “hive”? Depressed/damaged enough to commit suicide maybe?
Oh, another thing…that incident with Kristina Frye. I thought she was hypnotized to think she was a ghost, but then I heard people saying she was in catatonic state. Never quite got that one right… can someone explain that one to me?
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June 21st, 2013 at 8:47 am
Well, I think my last post is probably lost, so I take my chances and post it again:
An intriguing idea indeed, RoseUK, finding the “red bead”! 🙂 Now let’s recall another subtlety in language used in TM besides choosing of the words; recently I re-watched season 3 finale, ’Strawberries and Cream’; there, when Bertram asks Lisbon how the hell did Jane know that the bomber was Gupta, she replies that as the bomber could directly speak to the victim (through the cell phone he could have left with him like with Lisbon), there was no need to leave the address as a message for him on the wall. But when you watch the moment that Jane identifies the bomber when he and Lisbon are driving to the CBI headquarters, it actually seems that the moment of revelation is when he recognizes Gupta’s Indian accent even though it’s passed through a voice disguiser! Not sure about it, but it seems to me as though Jane picked the difference in his way of pronouncing ‘r’ at the end of the words or maybe his non-American intonation. Gupta himself recognizes his lapse and repeats the sentence with American accent, but it’s already too late! So in addition to your question, we can ask what can we deduce from the instances we heard the supposed disguised voice of RJ?
In this episode as others have mentioned above, and I don’t know why that is, Jane became certain of the work as RJ’s by seeing another message, a phone number, a different kind of address, written on the wall. But actually before that he was able to pick up the figurative accent behind RJ’s crude language as when Lisbon asks him, he declares that he [as always] can feel it!
About ‘Keeley Farlow’, Heller may have more than just a laugh with that one; her parents were killed in a car accident just like ‘LeeLee Barlow’, and like Lisbon’s mother by a drunk driver! Also about Heller metalizing us and particularly his word play with Ellis Mars, Elliston (the barn & Ella’s diner), …, we also had a shady revenge seeking groom in 3×5,’The Red Ponies’, named ‘Ellis Barnes’!
@ C Hill & suzjazz: So let’s call Lorelei, “Schrodinger’s cat” for now! (There was more than one instance of allusion to that in ‘Red and Itchy’!) 😉
@ phoenixx: Good eye! Absolutely (to an uncertain degree of uncertainty) no coincidences in TM! 🙂
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June 21st, 2013 at 7:53 pm
I’m going to take a chance and respond to Taissa’s excellent post.
Yes, Jane has said more than once that you can’t hypnotize a person to do something that they aren’t capable of (not necessarily that they don’t want to–I’m sure Rigsby didn’t really want to throw Jane off a building, although
he has violent impulses that clever hypnosis was able to direct towards whomever the hypnotist wanted.)
“So maybe RJ picks depressed or damaged people to be part of his “hive”? Depressed/damaged enough to commit suicide maybe?”
Yes, for sure. The only question is: how does he lure them to him to begin with if he’s not charismatic in some way? There has to be some reason for a depressed/suicidal person to want to kill another person along with him/herself, especially if the other person is not related or known to them, as in murder/suicides where the husband kills his family and then himself.
Not being an expert on hypnosis or mental illness, I can only conjecture that maybe a person *can* be hypnotized to believe they are dead, but I doubt very much if actual catatonia can be brought about by hypnosis unless the subject has experienced it before and is what used to be known as a catatonic schizophrenic (I think that terminology is outdated now) In any event, hypnosis-induced catatonia would not be permanent. But this being fiction and a TV show, all kinds of liberties are taken with what might actually happen in real life. Maybe Kristina is a schizophrenic who has the delusion of being a psychic and is off her meds. There are all kinds of unanswered questions like this on TM which I fear will never be addressed/resolved by the writers.
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June 23rd, 2013 at 3:51 am
Thank you for the reply suzjazz, I didn’t even think anyone was going to read any of that. I really liked your points, they made me rethink some things.
About the part of how RJ lures people, that got me thinking a bit. I too agree that he needs to be somewhat charismatic to lure them, but then I also remembered that he killed Lorelei’s sister (Miranda) so that she would be sad/hurt enough for him to try to “bring her to his side”, but he was helped by Julia Howard and Jason Lennon, they were the ones that brought Miranda to RJ (maybe they lured Lorelei to RJ too). So, what if RJ also has people luring the “potentialy suicidals” to him? That way he wouldn’t need to have much charisma. Lennon and Julia worked at a woman’s shelter, they could easily tell the damged women there that he knew a guy that could help them or something like that, and, if they took the bait, RJ could turn them into a follower. Also, Lennon was not the suicidal kind of follower, he was working for RJ because he probably was having something in return, like Sherrif Hardy/Dumar Tanner in Season 1, who helped RJ get Emma because RJ gave him Maya, the sister he liked.
So, to me, it looks like RJ has 2 kinds of followers: the ones that help him willingly either because they’re wicked like him or because they are getting something in return and are not prone to kill themselves so easily to portect RJ, but most likely to run or hide or pretend to be someone else, Like Sherrif Hardy/Dumar Tanner, Jason Lennon, Criag O’Laghling, Todd Johnson and Anthony Gupta (who was afraid the bomb in Lisbon’s vest would have exploded with him in the room), and by the way, I think O’Laughling was triying to bring Grace to their side with that “I’m you real friend, they are just your colleagues” talk. They would work as tools to get new followers (like Lennon, Julia and possibly O’Laughling), or as spys (like Craig and Rebecca) or to do some dirty work for RJ (like Dumar and Gupta).
And, the damaged/depressed followers that commit suicide. Like Miriam in season’s 5 finale, Rebecca who accepted her death with a happy smile (or was she thinking she was going to be rescued?), and the balcony girl in Strwaberries and Cream. How he manages to convince someone to commit suicide is the tricky question. Maybe he takes everything away from these people (like killing Lorelei’s sister) so that he is the only thing they have, that way those already depressed/suicidal people would prefer to die than have their “savior” arrested or killed and then he uses hypnosis to certify that they will try to kill themselves if he’s identity is in risk of exposure. Rebecca seemed very certain that RJ loved her, and when Jane reads her he says she had an unhappy childhood and was molested by a close relative, the molestation led to her developing a strong sense of self-loathing, which manifested itself as self-abuse and self-medication.
This post is getting ridiculously huge…
Something else I noticed…in Red All Over they arrest a Visualize member called Elizabeth and during the questioning she starts acting very weird, like she was brainwashed or something. Also, in The Blood On His Hands, Herren kills the Visualize lawyer right after he cuts a deal with CBI for turning over on Visualize, and then he has a creepy smile on his face and says that it was his ideia and nobody ordered him to kill him. So, if the Visualized can brain wash people to protect them even if it means killing someone, so maybe if RJ was a Visualize member, he could have learned from Visualize.
Oh, and for the Kristina Frye part, now that I thought more about it, I remebered that Jane said there is always some kind of trigger for the hypnotism to work or a trigger to disable it. What if RJ hypnotized her not to speak with anyone unless someone invoked her as a spirit? That way that “ritual” Jane did with the canddle would work as a trigger for getting her to talk…like a ghost.
Well, this post is waaay to long, and in any case we will have to wait for next season to get some of this questions answered. And I also fear that the Kristina case will not be resolved by the writers. But Lets hope thats not the case 🙂
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June 23rd, 2013 at 8:58 pm
Wow! Some excellent comments coming back from limbo!
Taissa & Suzjazz: Definitely not capable of such deep psychological analysis as you are, just wanted to add that after watching season 2 finale again lately, it occurred to me, rightly or wrongly, that there was not even a single shred of honesty in Kristina Frye’s talk and behavior, just too unnatural, even hypocritical. Take for example her reaction to the news of RJ killing her interviewer, void of any genuine emotion, maybe as a result of previous knowledge! And as Suzjazz rightly said before, there definitely is no *real* psychics in this show, as the show’s world is supposed to be the same as our real world (Or is it? Oh, by the way what a sweet tasting tea! 🙂 ), so she is definitely a fraud in my opinion and probably an RJ minion. Or I may be totally wrong! (Also think that there is much, much more to the last minutes of that episode than initially meets the eye!)
Very nice detective work about Kirkland’s name Taissa! I personally enjoyed it very much as it strengthens my long held suspicion that RJ & Roy are two different people which could a realization of what C Hill said above about maybe RJ is working as a pair of people! And please don’t worry about reading too much into things, this is a blog about a work of fiction and definitely not a life and death serious matter (or is it?!).
Excellent comment Auli! I think even Rosalind seemed to be hiding something when Jane brought her to see if she can identify Carter. Oh, goodness why is everything so fuzzy and cloudy in this show? I love it! They are asking us to detect signaled clues which are all below the show’s background noise level! 🙂
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June 23rd, 2013 at 10:44 pm
Wow, anomalycommenter! I thought I was the only one who think Kristina Frye is fraud and maybe a RJ’s minion, mainly when she was found alive. I never liked her, since the season 1, maybe because I don’t believe in real psychics. But she did seem an amoral person, a con woman. She hadn’t made anything to wake RJ’s ire in the first place. I will never forgive Hightower for pushing Jane to her.
I expect the writers to resolve her case. I also want to know what Bosco REALLY said to Jane before he died.
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June 23rd, 2013 at 11:48 pm
Before we get too far afield in watering down RJ’s character to the point where one of the un-magnificent seven may even be a viable suspect, all of the real life cult leaders that I’ve seen on the news have charisma in spades. There were no run-of-the-mill dweebs getting people to sacrifice their lives for Waco, Jonestown, countless others. Over the top, larger than life, beyond smooth talkers. True, normal folks don’t go flocking after these wing nuts, but there’s plenty of damaged people around who will. Outside of Stiles, who is not a candidate due to age and position, the rest are true mediocrities. Writers – we have a problem.
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June 24th, 2013 at 5:03 am
Aaaand I’m back again! 😀
I had an epiphany after reading anomalycommenter’s post.
“Very nice detective work about Kirkland’s name Taissa! I personally enjoyed it very much as it strengthens my long held suspicion that RJ & Roy are two different people which could a realization of what C Hill said above about maybe RJ is working as a pair of people! ”
First, thanks :D. Second… I didn’t see C Hill’s comment on RJ being 2 people, but I remembered that RJ had a sidekick called Orville Tanner (Sherrif Hardy’s dad). Tanner was arrested for the murder of a woman in 1998, he said that he was just a look-out and that the real killer was Red John. So, sometime in the past, RJ did worked as a pair. If he had a sidekick in the past, what stops him from having another one now? Maybe, after Tanner was arrested, he got another sidekick.
I know that doesn’t prove that RJ is a pair of people, he could have given up on the idea of having a partner and decided to go solo. But if it turns out RJ is really a pair of guys, then it would be believable, considering he used to have on before.
As for Kristina, never really liked her. I don’t see how she is any different from Sean Barlow, she is just not intimidating like Sean.
“…her reaction to the news of RJ killing her interviewer, void of any genuine emotion…” Maybe it was bad acting? 😛
Oh, and I forgot to comment on susjazz’s “Maybe Kristina is a schizophrenic who has the delusion of being a psychic and is off her meds”. If she really is schizophrenic then her zombie behavior could be a case of Cotard’s Syndrome, considering that this syndrome is often found in patients suffering from schizophrenia. There is even a case of a guy that suffered a head trauma and acquired that syndrome afterwards, and he was not even schizophrenic. It’s a very rare syndrome, but more likely to apear in someone with mental illness. But! That Syndrome wouldn’t explain why she could not remember who Red John was, only her apathy and delusion of being dead.
Oh…another big post. I gotta stop doing that…
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June 24th, 2013 at 11:19 am
Good to know that you think the same, Carla! My opinion of Kristina Frye concerns her pre *abduction* state of mind. I don’t know what to think of her, post abduction. Suzjazz and Taissa have a very interesting theory about that above. Completely agree with you, absolutely no psychics! As to about believing anything, generally would have loved to engage in a *theological* debate, as much as Jane and Gupta would, but like them here is probably not the right place! Exactly the same feelings about Frye, I think her date with Jane was no less creepy than Kirkland and Lisbon’s! As much as Kirkland’s intentions was to get information from Lisbon indirectly, it seemed that Frye wanted to plant (or “incept” or brainwash) the view she represented into Jane’s head also through an alternative route! I’m not very hopeful, but it would be great if we would have eventually found out if she herself was indeed brainwashed by RJ, or something else constitutes the reality. And by the way what did that doll they found with Kristina represent?
And yes it really seemed that Jane did not tell Lisbon the truth about what Bosco told him! As others have stated before, it is very likely we will never know the truth about many of these ambiguous points.
Lou Ann said above that “BH has said in early interviews that when he wrote the pilot he knew who RJ was and had a general concept of how the story would play out.” And so one other thing I am dying to know is if the person or group of people Heller considered as being RJ has ever changed throughout the course of the series? That is a bigger question for me than the identity of RJ! That we will know eventually, but one never knows If one can trust the clues about RJ’s identity one sees in early seasons or not!
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June 27th, 2013 at 6:42 pm
You’re welcome Taissa! Great insight about that as RJ once had a close companion, so why not now? Also I’m not familiar with other works of the actress who played Kristina Frye, but I tend to believe that she’s a good actress and it’s the role that required that vague emotional reactions, again just my humble opinion. And thanks again for your great posts! 🙂
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June 28th, 2013 at 11:24 am
well, yes, seems like someone blew on the embers here… 🙂
ort, i think you may want to do a little reading on cult leaders. many are the kind of people, much like serial killers(!), who are able to read a certain personality type and take advantage of it. when looked at from a far, many think “how did he do that?”. not every cult leader is david koresh or jim jones.
frye could be interesting if they bring her back. in the season review thread, i quoted a rebecca wisocky interview where she calls her character a kind of time bomb and intimates there could be more. certainly frye has that type of potential — for example frye as “Mrs RJ” would be quite a twist.
i just think given the history of the show, i’d be surprised if RJ was not a team of 2, maybe 3 on the outside, of people. how that plays out…
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June 28th, 2013 at 7:55 pm
@ Anomaly: Oooh, that’s interesting. I might go back and re-watch that one – I always wondered how Jane figured out the bomber’s identity. 🙂
@ Taissa: Yes, you can definitely get an insight into RJ’s preoccupations by his use of language. You’re right: this time it’s all about being “clever” (suggesting rivalry & competitiveness) whereas before the focus was on “dishonest” “fraud” and “money-grubbing” (which is kind of the name-calling way angry people react to Jane when they’ve been conned/affected by him in the past – the vengeful would-be killers in Bloodshot & Ball of Fire, for example. This would support the theory that RJ is someone who has been conned either by Jane or Jane’s father at some point). In both letters, the tone is also smug and almost crowing over Jane. Which to me suggests someone a bit insecure and bitter. Which could easily be masked behind a veneer of ease and confidence.
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August 29th, 2013 at 5:23 am
I got to this site by googling “The Mentalist” & Condescending.
Although I watch my share of television, I had never been aware of “The Mentalist.” I had probably heard the phrase, and been mildly intrigued.
I just took an international flight where they had the typically broad selection of video entertainment, and one selection was an episode or two of “The Mentalist”. Not knowing anything about it at all, I started to watch.
Who were these people? They seem to be some sort of law enforcement. Who was that one condescending jerk who kept providing unasked-for psychoanalysis to manipulate the people around him? Whoa, why aren’t the people around him exhibiting healthy boundaries, and telling him to mind his own damn business? Instead they are all acting so damaged and submissive to him. So much for the first 3 minutes.
Ok, let’s get on with what the show is really about. Oh. Oh dear. The condescending jerk is psychoanalyzing everyone, handing out put-downs disguised as caring confrontations. Oh, that’s it: this character is passive-aggressive and superior-acting. That’s what the show is about: he’s a toxic bastard. No, wait..it’s coming in more clearly now..oh NO! That guy’s manipulative button-pushing is his “superpower”. He is the hero. This show is all about him leaping tall buildings by pointing out everyone’s psychological weaknesses to them, in front of other people.
At 11 minutes in, I decided to wade through the rest of the show just for laughs. At 12 minutes in, I decided “yuck, on second thought, I was right the first time. I want to switch it off.” And I did.
This show is really popular, huh? No wonder strangers keep giving me free, unasked for psychotherapy.
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August 29th, 2013 at 7:04 am
Lol!
First of all welcome to the blog. It’s nice to see a new viewer’s perspective on a show we’ve come to love so much. Yes, “Jane the Jerk” (as we’ve come to call him) is an established aspect of the main character. But surely you don’t think that’s why people love the show so much? Just like Jane suffers from condescension (a fact that has sent a fair number of us- and the other characters- wild with fury at times over the years) he suffers much deeper issues that we’ve enjoyed dissecting season after season with each new insight we’ve gotten into his past.
I’m flattered you’ve chosen our humble blog to leave your feedback. Perhaps you’d like to revisit after you’ve at least seen the pilot. We’d surely have much more to talk about then 🙂
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August 29th, 2013 at 11:14 am
Thanks for the response. Um…maybe I will see the pilot.
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August 29th, 2013 at 11:42 am
Oh, Reviewbrain, I’m glad you are back I’ve missed you too much. Please, don’t disappear anymore.
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August 29th, 2013 at 4:27 pm
Just like Carla, I’m really glad to see you back writing in your own blog Reviewbrain. Looking forward and hoping to see more of your posts next season. 🙂
Hopefully our new commenter, just like us, would find much deeper and more beautiful human feelings and relations that we’ve come to enjoy in this show. And I assure him that if he’d ever come to like the show to any extent, he will love and be amazed by the depth of the reviews (by both Reviewbrain and Violet) he’ll find in this blog. 🙂
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